Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[Ferrycraigs]

I see two owners on the sheet:
S75D 8.93% Loss
S75D 2.11% Loss

There might be more.

Which sheet is this?
Of course 2.11% loss doesn’t sound like a classic batterygate Loss.

 

[Droschke]

Which sheet is this?

The Google Sheet (Tracker).

 

[Droschke]

There was at least one 75 owned that had started out with a 60 and paid for the uncap. He was rightfully complaining that Tesla took 2k from his pocket in exchange for nothing.

It was @meomyo, in this post, replying to you:

Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

 

[MP3Mike]

(assuming that all 75s are in fact capped 85s

Most 75s are actual 75s. (Same modules as the 90 packs but only 14 of them instead of 16.)

 

[MP3Mike]

Do we think the condition is in the CANbus data? I guess it has to be. Presumably Jason knows what to look for. I don't remember anyone referencing CANbus data other than "brick" voltage.

I would assume that you have to query the BMS to get that kind of information it wouldn't just be broadcast. (But I really have no idea.)

 

[Droschke]

Informative post in another thread, referencing an interesting article:

Battery Degradation Scientifically Explained

 

[bmah]

Moderator note: Moved a few posts to snippiness.

Please avoid provoking other members.

Bruce.

PS. Someone PM-ed me about what "moved to snippiness" means...so I would guess not everybody know what this means. Posts that are found to be inappropriate for some reason or another get moved to this thread in the "Off-Topic" forum.

snippiness

 

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

There was at least one 75 owned that had started out with a 60 and paid for the uncap. He was rightfully complaining that Tesla took 2k from his pocket in exchange for nothing.

They took away the option to unlock my battery on my account page, so basically I've been capped. I haven't done much supercharging and I've never charged to 100%, so my battery should be about as healthy as could be.

 

[sorka]

There may be further help coming up - cannot make a further disclosure yet.
So far there is nothing that a solo practice cannot handle - except for the dozens of additional plaintiffs.

At some point, if this goes anywhere, he's going to need to take on a larger firm to help out with this. My car is still on V8 and it's a perfect candidate to collect pre update data from should mine be one of the capped units after I inevitably get V10.

I know you asked me to collect some data and send it on but I feel like the chain of custody of me collecting my own data and sending it to Ed won't hold water as evidence. I would have thought he would have hired a third party to handle that.

My car still has v8 so there's still time at least until it doesn't and it may turn out that I'm not capped even one little bit but if I end up being capped, wouldn't it have been awesome if the state of my battery, how much it actually holds, and how far I can actually drive prior to the update was documented by a third party that has the expertise to collect that data and testify as an expert witness?

 

[sorka]

I had a ~2 hour talk with Michael Kruge (him in Berlin and me in California) about this new device and the condition of Tesla cars in Europe.
This new device has been working for about 6 months on a few dozen cars before they released it recently.
It was designed in association with Amund Borsen (author of Scan My Tesla) and I a few other people.
I will know much more about this product once I receive it.
It basically gathers EVERYTHING available through the mobile API.
It gathers it in such a way as it can be statistically analyzed.
It runs seamlessly from your home internet connection by accessing your car using the Tesla credentials.
You can either keep your data private or share with the community for fleet-wide data

There will also be an interface to integrate Scan My Tesla data and CANBUS dumps to get even more detailed information.

Interesting other data from Michael:
European insurance companies are supportive of third party maintenance and repair of Teslas (including battery refurbishment).
Much of this is due to the lack of spares available worldwide - thus making the insurance pay for extraordinarily long rentals.

This may be another tactic we can pursue here in the states.
It might only be good for those beyond warranty.
But, we can see Tesla is currently disregarding the battery warranty.

I volunteer my car as a pre-update example

 

[sorka]

Actually, natural degradation does allow charging to the full 4.2 volts. It just delivers less Ah due to chemistry changes.

This is a key point that so many still don't realize even though it's been stated a hundred times in this thread.

 

[Newscutter]

Yes, it sucks that range loss could be involved....

Appreciate your insight as always, @wk057 -- but how would these conditions relate to the lowered charge rate? I understand the capping from my rudimentary understanding of battery chemistry and if that truly only affects a few hundred cars it's not as catastrophic as many suspect.

However, the lowered ability to fast-charge affects many, many more people-- not just the owners who can't charge fast, but everyone who is stuck waiting at a crowded Supercharger. And for some people, that negated experience will be more common (or doubly insulting) than an overall range cap.

So, in your estimation, could it be that this functionality is more likely to be returned than the capping as Tesla regains some confidence with their mitigation strategies?

 

[sorka]

Do we think the condition is in the CANbus data? I guess it has to be. Presumably Jason knows what to look for. I don't remember anyone referencing CANbus data other than "brick" voltage.

If anyone has any Scan My Telsa CSV logs from a capped car ("All" data or "BMS" data and "Battery" data) then I would be interested to have a look through them. Ideally logs should be at high SOC and also low SOC. I should also temper my request that I don't really know what I am looking for but I am interested to see if there is anything that stands out versus my own uncapped one.

I posted this a while ago but here it is again. This is a pre-update chart of my car that has not been effected yet.

Can anyone with a capped car post theirs?

 

[sorka]

Question. Evidence suggests that batterygate affects pre facelift 85s, 70s (genuine not capped), and 60s. Has there been any reports of capping of 75s? (assuming that all 75s are in fact capped 85s)? Inference being if they are already capped then they are unlikely to be capped further.....

Minor point but all 85s are pre-face lift

 

[sorka]

Moderator note: Moved a few posts to snippiness.

Please avoid provoking other members.

Bruce.

PS. Someone PM-ed me about what "moved to snippiness" means...so I would guess not everybody know what this means. Posts that are found to be inappropriate for some reason or another get moved to this thread in the "Off-Topic" forum.

snippiness

Even posts that aren't snippy will be moved if they're part of the snippiness that started it. If the mod doesn't remove the replies and the replies to the replies, then it will look weird to see quoted posts that no longer exist.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

Minor point but all 85s are pre-face lift

Agreed. My point was more that only pre face lift cars were affected. And of that fleet, only some batteries, ie 85, 70 and 60 were affected. Importantly not 90 kWh cars (important, IMO, as the 90 is the only pre facelift battery that uses a different cell)

 

[bhzmark]

Contrary to what some have said, disagreement is tolerated, and even encouraged here on TMC.

Amen brother.

Lets not have an echo chamber here.

There should be an interesting technical and legal conversation about the distinction between degradation and defect.

 

[DJRas]

I posted this a while ago but here it is again. This is a pre-update chart of my car that has not been effected yet.

Can anyone with a capped car post theirs?

Is this while charging or at quiescent voltage?
I have this during charge cycles.

 

[sorka]

Is this while charging or at quiescent voltage?
I have this during charge cycles.

This is static voltage so not charging.

 

[Matias]

By not applying the update, you're accepting that slightly elevated risk of failure... just like you would if you had an ICE vehicle and say, didn't replace a component you knew could fail.
.

But Tesla has not told us, that there would be some risk? So how would owners be accepting some risk? If Tesla had said that there is some risk and updates mitigate that, then your analogy would work.