Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[Droschke]

Science! What's that? People have opinions. And, their opinions are all that counts. We are asked to entertain the Science Dissenters

 

[Chaserr]

Appreciate you taking the time to explain. Please understand that even the most diligent member entering this mid thread cannot be expected to sift through 371 pages and 7 thousand some posts, and then also determine who speaks the truth when many eloquently state opinion as fact.

that’s why the 1st page wiki (thx whom ever crafted) is so useful, but only to the extent it remains concise and factual. I did not recall seeing this technical discussion of the definition of degradation in the wiki. Is it there? If not, plz boil it down and add it. Then when people raise it, you can politely direct them there, and it will improve the level of discourse.

Agreed! Thanks @Droschke for distilling almost 7500 posts into a single useful and educational summary of the issue and its many facets.

 

[mvotb]

Thanks for making my point. It's your way or the highway. No dissent allowed.

I'm always willing to learn. Please show any factual evidence that you have, that degradation causes a battery not to be able to charge to its original maximum voltage.

 

[bhzmark]

I did not recall seeing this technical discussion of the definition of degradation in the wiki.

I agree. And specifically would be very interesting to see intelligent views on the relationship between lithium plating and voltage levels for detection (voltage plateaus), exacerbation (high voltage charging), and mitigation/remediation (low voltage cap).

 

[tga]

I'm always willing to learn. Please show any factual evidence that you have, that degradation causes a battery not to be able to charge to it's original voltage.

I don't, nor did I say I did. However, I can just as easily ask if you have evidence to the contrary. Because no one has offered any.

 

[Leeboy22001]

So since V10 I'm seeing a slow reduction in range again !, not happy .. see attached teslafi. So much for the cap stopping any battery capacity reduction

 

[cpa]

If the BMS was designed that way in 2014 and 2015 there are two possible cases:

Case 1) you wouldn't have noticed anything because you wouldn't have Condition Z yet because the condition Z trigger only arises from usage.

Case 2) you would have noticed right away because condition Z was a manufacturing defect which was sensed right away.

Case 2 would be warrantable, but not Case 1.

Possibly there is a Case 3) which is a manufacturing defect that only arises over time. But that would be tough to distinguish from usage, especially if Condition Z is a normal usage condition like lithium plating. Condition Z would likely have to be something like a broken wire or connection or broken part of some kind.

All my lithium battery knowledge I have learned from this thread, and I know less than ever! That said, I will stipulate to your points for the purposes of my reply.

I would also think that Case 1 is also warrantable. From the get-go, Tesla encouraged us to drive, drive, drive. They put their money where their mouth is by proclaiming an eight-year unlimited mileage warranty on the battery and BMS. There were no caveats on our driving. They wanted us to get the word out about their fantastic cars by driving around and Supercharging. It was inexpensive and effective advertising. When we bought our S in 2014, there were about 20 Model S in our town. Within one year, that number had jumped to over 100.

I posted about 3,000 posts ago that Tesla likely did not perform nearly enough testing of their batteries and Supercharging these batteries. These preliminary results indicated that these batteries would last a long time, and Supercharging with its tapering effects would not damage the batteries significantly through their life cycles. So, my take is that Tesla rushed their batteries to market without doing nearly enough real-world testing. I am not an engineer or statistician, but I would think that Tesla needed to have at the minimum 250 vehicles driven for well-over 100,000 miles each in all sorts of variable conditions to try to mimic how we owners would operate our cars. I do not think Tesla had a large enough sample size during their evaluation period to gather appropriate data to see how the batteries would respond and whether they really could sustain their promotional claims regarding range and Supercharging speeds.

Because, if Tesla had delayed (probably corporate suicide back in 2012) marketing the Model S until they had a real good handle on their batteries, they might have changed their warranty provision, range estimates, and might have changed their Supercharging rate taper in order not to impose it upon us several years later. But that might have made Tesla the laughing stock of the automotive world. "At our Superchargers, you can refill your battery from 20% to 80% in less than 90 minutes!" combined with 235 miles of range with an 85/81kWh battery would not have sold many cars.

In short, Tesla knew, or should have known, what their batteries were actually capable of doing over years of usage. Instead they either ignored their data or they kicked the can down the road to deal with at a later time.

In conclusion, because there were claims promoted by the marketing department and backed by the engineering department that have proven to be at the worst untrue (Tesla did know) or at the best bad science (Tesla should have known) ordinary usage should not nullify the warranty claim on these batteries if the batterygate software is in response to this lithium plating problem.

Short version: Ignorance is not a defense to not honoring a warranty claim.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

Appreciate you taking the time to explain. Please understand that even the most diligent member entering this mid thread cannot be expected to sift through 371 pages and 7 thousand some posts, and then also determine who speaks the truth when many eloquently state opinion as fact.

that’s why the 1st page wiki (thx whom ever crafted) is so useful, but only to the extent it remains concise and factual. I did not recall seeing this technical discussion of the definition of degradation in the wiki. Is it there? If not, plz boil it down and add it. Then when people raise it, you can politely direct them there, and it will improve the level of discourse.

Tomas, I think the volt explanation is in the wiki. And to be clear, when I say cell voltage, I mean the maximum voltage applied to the cell. It should be 4.2V. That is the voltage above which the BMS should prevent any further charging. Tesla have reduced that max voltage. And the wiki was created exactly, as you say, because there are over 7000 posts, and so many variations of theory. It doesn’t propose a definitive theory, and indeed I don’t think, even after 7000 posts, there is one. The wiki should just be a summary of what is known, or of facts. I freely admit, one of my pet hates is opinion put forward as fact. It really is quite easy to say 'I believe X is so' rather than simply 'x is so'. Where there is conjecture or assumption, almost unavoidable, it should be clearly stated that it is conjecture.

 

[CuriousG]

Well my MCU died last week and when I finally got around to try and charge my car from home, it didn't work. So I attempted to Supercharge Friday and failed. At this point I only showed 12 miles left on the battery and would not be able to make it to the service center so I had it towed.

When I arrived at SC, there was only 7 miles left on the car as something else is draining the car quickly. When I checked later that evening, it only showed 4 miles and they're not open on the weekend. I did let them know the battery was very low. Got text today they're still working on it, I'm afraid to check what battery shows now or how it's going to affect my car.

I tried to login through Tesla.com to check FSD prices on early Model 3 and my account has been locked out through too many bad password attempts. I'm hoping it's because Tesla people have been trying to log in as opposed to a hacking attempt as I gave them a temporary password the last time when they had to reload my firmware before it died again 6 weeks later.

 

[Droschke]

I did not recall seeing this technical discussion of the definition of degradation in the wiki. Is it there?

Yes. It's under the "USEFUL LINKS" section toward the bottom, where it says "Battery technical links", it's a link of compiled links, where many scientifically researched articles/papers are noted, some of which were cited by several technically versed posters who actually know about the battery science and recommended them to us, all in the time period of this thread when there were less innuendo, misinformation and disruption.

 

[Todd Burch]

They gave back the first scraps of what they stole the day after the class action was filed, and they are now giving back a little more only days after being served an ultimatum from the NHTSA. They can keep giving back scraps little by little because they took so much... This latest scrap increases volts to 4.1v (about 90% of actual, so they've returned roughly half under duress)

I have received no range back. I am only going down. If you are getting some back it’s not because they’ve changed something to return some of the range.

 

[Todd Burch]

https://echo.epa.gov/report-environmental-violations

Tesla is guilty of Dieselgate fraud so you can report here. Dropping pack ndervoltage under the EPA rated 4.2v makes the EPAs monroney MPGes sticker fraudulently submitted and impossible for any impacted car to achieve, even with a brand new battery.

This is the nuclear option. I haven't asked the EPA to investigate yet.if they do, Tesla may not survive, the punishments to VW when they did it to a smaller fraction of their cars would crush Tesla.

Chaserr, you’re going a bit off the deep end.

 

[lightningltd]

I have received no range back. I am only going down. If you are getting some back it’s not because they’ve changed something to return some of the range.

I got nothing back either, just the opposite. Yes, I got 10 miles back with an update, but they took 5 back since then.

 

[Droschke]

I don't, nor did I say I did. However, I can just as easily ask if you have evidence to the contrary. Because no one has offered any.

You are very correct that you have asked for evidence. Sadly, when evidence was provided, with the supporting links, you ejected that evidence. And, that's where one's persistent opinion overrides facts unfortunately.

 

[tga]

You are very correct that you have asked for evidence. Sadly, when evidence was provided, with the supporting links, you ejected that evidence. And, that's where one's persistent opinion overrides facts unfortunately.

I'm not sure what evidence and links you're talking about.

 

[Droschke]

I'm not sure what evidence and links you're talking about.

And that ^ is the problem. A short memory can also be part of these wasteful back and forth.

 

[Chaserr]

@tga read post 1 page 1, absorb all you can.

 

[sorka]

Sorry to be mostly absent. I need to maintain my sanity and as long as I have v8, I remain in my perfect little unaffected world with my barely degraded battery and my 118KW super charging speeds.

I know that could all come crashing down on me should I screw up my vudu magic routine that includes:

• Null wifi hotspot
• Rear door handle fuse removed(except when I have company).
• Drivers door cracked when I'm at home (have always done this to reduce wear and tear cycles on the pivot gear).
• Rear hatch open.
• Frunk open.
• Manual power down every time I get out.

Hoping the vudu continues to ward off the evil "software adjustment" darts from the sky.

Any important news in the last thousand 500 or so posts?

 

[mvotb]

I don't, nor did I say I did. However, I can just as easily ask if you have evidence to the contrary. Because no one has offered any.

Obviously you haven't read the whole thread. There have been many battery knowledgable people in this thread who have taught those of us who have been on the thread, from the beginning, a lot. Evidently, the info is in the wiki, I don't know, I haven't looked. You can read those links or find your own. The reason people are short, with this speculation, is we have seen it so many times before, when new people, to the thread, speculate rather than reading the very long thread. Hopefully the wiki will help.

 

[BPeter]

So a 50% degraded battery may only be able to charge to 50%. But the battery will not report that as 50%. A degraded battery will use its charge up more quickly. The Cell will charge up more quickly, and deplete more quickly. This will be reflected in higher Wh consumption per mile.

Is this correct? I don't think it will report a higher Wh/mile, the battery just holds less Wh. It will be more %/mile, but not Wh.