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Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

raphy3

Member
May 5, 2017
406
854
Elsewhere
MCU1 to MCU2 upgrade is $1,500.
yeah, also a new MCU1 is coming at some point to me under the recall. given what wk057 said about vampire charge here, I'm pretty skeptical of the utility of a MCU2 upgrade for me. I already bleed off 4 miles per day (if I'm lucky it's that low), and boosting that up more with the lack of sb power makes me really wonder about how much more it'll waste. Another thing I'd lose with MCU2 is my IC display. I use a Tinklabuddy to make it display the AP1 UI (or switch back and forth as I please to the old school UI) in addition to diplaying battery temps on my non Ludi car, which doesn't work with MCU2.

Battery replacement is what.... 12k usd for the model S and with another 2500 usd charger upgrade and another 2500 usd for an mcu upgrade may give you essentially a new car if you dont need fancy new tech features?
It's true that all of that would be cheaper than a new car, even if it ends up costing half what this vehicle is actually worth.

Basically, this whole thread has me worried how long this battery will last after this year, and if I should go through the slog of changing this car out. (I'm very lazy)
 

Candleflame

Active Member
Mar 9, 2015
2,647
1,215
QLD, Australia
yeah, also a new MCU1 is coming at some point to me under the recall. given what wk057 said about vampire charge here, I'm pretty skeptical of the utility of a MCU2 upgrade for me. I already bleed off 4 miles per day (if I'm lucky it's that low), and boosting that up more with the lack of sb power makes me really wonder about how much more it'll waste. Another thing I'd lose with MCU2 is my IC display. I use a Tinklabuddy to make it display the AP1 UI (or switch back and forth as I please to the old school UI) in addition to diplaying battery temps on my non Ludi car, which doesn't work with MCU2.


It's true that all of that would be cheaper than a new car, even if it ends up costing half what this vehicle is actually worth.

Basically, this whole thread has me worried how long this battery will last after this year, and if I should go through the slog of changing this car out. (I'm very lazy)

why do you want the AP1 UI? or do you have AP1 and just prefer the older cluster for driving without AP?
 

alloverx

Member
Mar 20, 2016
876
606
Seattle
Ideally lots of factors go into car buying/trading.
-Financial (can you afford to upgrade, should you get similar model or downgrade)
-Reliability risk (if car has expensive repair, can you afford it-irrespective of repair decision. If car offline for long repair what options do you have)
-Size requirements
-Feature requirements
-Safety requirements (how often are you at high speed on Freeway versus just local driving)
-Driving requirements (how many miles do you drive)

The latest Model-3 looks good in terms of latest features.
I would assume the demand for M3 might go down with MY and other electric SUVs coming out.

Also this year you will have a lot of non-Tesla options starting to fire-up.
 

Candleflame

Active Member
Mar 9, 2015
2,647
1,215
QLD, Australia
I drive -err, my car drives- with an AP1 replacement :cool:
(AP1 wasn't a thing yet in 2013, but lots of the guts in the car)

openpilot? openpilot will still work fine with the pre-ap dash and openpilot cant show you a picture on the dash. Or do you have that programmed in via third party? we want to see videos, dont leave us hanging!
 

raphy3

Member
May 5, 2017
406
854
Elsewhere
openpilot? openpilot will still work fine with the pre-ap dash and openpilot cant show you a picture on the dash. Or do you have that programmed in via third party? we want to see videos, dont leave us hanging!
that is right, openpilot can't show AP1 UIs, but, there is a magical add on. see Tinkla Buddy - Tinkla: Tinkering with Tesla
I have videos of the car driving with the UI, but not a well done one, but here's a before/after pic. You'll have to take my word for it that it's the same IC 😆
But yeah I've had a bunch of 12+ hour road trips with pre AP 2013 driving itself with OP. AP1 UI and battery temp display are nice to have.
 

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raphy3

Member
May 5, 2017
406
854
Elsewhere
Ideally lots of factors go into car buying/trading.
-Financial (can you afford to upgrade, should you get similar model or downgrade)
-Reliability risk (if car has expensive repair, can you afford it-irrespective of repair decision. If car offline for long repair what options do you have)
-Size requirements
-Feature requirements
-Safety requirements (how often are you at high speed on Freeway versus just local driving)
-Driving requirements (how many miles do you drive)

The latest Model-3 looks good in terms of latest features.
I would assume the demand for M3 might go down with MY and other electric SUVs coming out.

Also this year you will have a lot of non-Tesla options starting to fire-up.
yeah the increase in options is one thing to keep an eye on.
 

SmartElectric

Active Member
Jul 9, 2014
2,431
2,070
Toronto,Canada
that is right, openpilot can't show AP1 UIs, but, there is a magical add on. see Tinkla Buddy - Tinkla: Tinkering with Tesla
I have videos of the car driving with the UI, but not a well done one, but here's a before/after pic. You'll have to take my word for it that it's the same IC 😆
But yeah I've had a bunch of 12+ hour road trips with pre AP 2013 driving itself with OP. AP1 UI and battery temp display are nice to have.

Am technical and would be interested in a thread on this forum regarding your experiences, hoping you could post the thread link and tag me, would LOVE to see your experiences, and yes, I do know of the GITHUB links and details, but no code changes to comma.ai for Tesla's in a long time, so wondering if you are on previous comma.ai release, etc. ... please do post a thread, thanks!
 

mymagiccarpet

Member
Apr 11, 2019
176
405
California
As 75s and 90s got their charging speeds upped, my 85 got it dropped with the 37.1 update. I used to start up to 130kw when the battery was warm and below 10% SoC. Twice now after the update, at full warmth, it's topped out at 115kw, and drops just as fast, so adds yet another 5 minutes to charging. Fan behavior has also changed, fans kicking on high based on kw draw, not temperature, as the battery never gets above 43c anymore, this only happened over 50c before.

The only other possibility is the car just passed a ridiculously low 3500kwh of DC fast charging. (out of over 60,000kwh total).

About to sell this damn P85D and get a 90D since folks got their charging speed back, even though I'd rather have the P85D car.

5-75% takes a damn hour or 65 minutes. Road tripping is toast and I've given up hope. Watching it hit 50kw before 50% SoC is so damn demoralizing. 5-65% roadtripping is like drive for 1 hour or a bit more, charge for 35-40 minutes, rinse repeat. Drive 7 hours, charge 4? Awesome. :/
It is quite frustrating. It's difficult to make any trips longer than 100mi. Mine will not go over 70kW no matter what (temp, preconditioning, SOC), and it will stay there only to say "I was there", then immediately drops to 60s, 50s, will hang out at 47 for a while, and go to 30s, and eventually to 27, 22. This is all well before it gets to 80% - I rarely charge over 80. And 70kw requires warm weather and preconditioning, otherwise, it won't even think about it, but then again it's useless, b/c it lasts a few seconds at most.
In contrast, when I first bought it two years ago, it was charging at 113 for some time. While that may not be possible any more, I would like to at least have that 50-70 range for longer, instead of charging 20-80% @ 30ish kW on average.
Also, the charge duration estimates used to be quite accurate up to 80-90%, and they seem to have not be updated in any way since the change of charge rates. You can just watch that estimate change constantly. It's useless.
 
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sorka

Well-Known Member
Feb 28, 2015
7,878
5,781
Merced, CA
Dropped off the car yesterday and waited for an hour or so. They came back and said they'd need to keep it over the weekend and that it might be the HV contactors😤

...which is what I told them the first time since those two errors have only ever been associated with failing contactors.

I got them to wave the diagnostic fee. Either this is what they said it was in which case a second diagnostic fee would have been me paying for the MCU2 upgrade twice, or it really is a battery issue and they did nothing to fix it the first time.

I did get a 75D loaner but it just stung me on the way home seeing how fast this one chargers compared to my car. It started out at 138KW. I took this photo a few minutes later to show that it already had 5kwh added and this is not just the initial spike you get after plugging in.

20210408_160709.jpg
 
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mymagiccarpet

Member
Apr 11, 2019
176
405
California
Forgot to ask, is (was) your pumps running at 80% lately?
I know the question was for someone else, but since we are on the topic, I wanted to update also. In general, I do not see pumps draining the battery above 80% like before, but they do run - by my definition, run means I can hear them. However, now they run most of the time, even below 80%. I think I can hear them/it down to 50%. What exactly is happening, I do not know. Today however, I had to charge to 100%, and instead of charging before I had to leave, it charged early in the morning b/c it thinks I'm on time of day rate. So there was some 6.5 hours between when battery was fully charged and the time I left. During that time, pumps were running and it was "losing" ~1mi/hr. Which does not happen below 80% when pumps run. So there is definitely a difference in behavior that's dependent on the SOC.
 

SmartElectric

Active Member
Jul 9, 2014
2,431
2,070
Toronto,Canada
I do not see pumps draining the battery above 80% like before, but they do run - by my definition, run means I can hear them. However, now they run most of the time, even below 80%. I think I can hear them/it down to 50%

@wk057 covered this : Tesla runs the pumps at very low fluid velocity such that the temperature sensors on the coolant lines can be monitoring temperature. My 2013 has the very faint sound of pumps working away most of the day when charged to 90% daily (our normal max since we bought the car).

Think about it this way, the fluid pump and BMS boards are very low electricity usage, and this method will keep fluid moving through the many temperature sensors when the car is "idle", which can provide that ultimate level of security/safety that the battery is at an appropriate temperature. Imagine if one cell in a pack of 7000 cells has a malfunction and overheats, eventually this method of slowly but consistently monitoring temperature will show higher temperatures and "catch" this bad cell.

Whereas it would be unlikely to catch a slight heat change when the car is in motion, both drawing and charging (regen) the battery constantly, causing temperature sensors to have much larger ranges in short periods of time, meaning, you can't "isolate" and find anomalies as easily (or at all) during this active condition.
 
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wk057

Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,658
11,424
Hickory, NC, USA
@wk057 covered this : Tesla runs the pumps at very low fluid velocity such that the temperature sensors on the coolant lines can be monitoring temperature. My 2013 has the very faint sound of pumps working away most of the day when charged to 90% daily (our normal max since we bought the car).

Think about it this way, the fluid pump and BMS boards are very low electricity usage, and this method will keep fluid moving through the many temperature sensors when the car is "idle", which can provide that ultimate level of security/safety that the battery is at an appropriate temperature. Imagine if one cell in a pack of 7000 cells has a malfunction and overheats, eventually this method of slowly but consistently monitoring temperature will show higher temperatures and "catch" this bad cell.

Whereas it would be unlikely to catch a slight heat change when the car is in motion, both drawing and charging (regen) the battery constantly, causing temperature sensors to have much larger ranges in short periods of time, meaning, you can't "isolate" and find anomalies as easily (or at all) during this active condition.

The pumps also have to run any time the contactors are closed since the DCDC is liquid cooled.
 

cousin_IT

Face provided by boredhumans.com
Oct 27, 2020
199
151
Netherlands
What they don't tell you about the MCU2 retrofit is the higher vampire drain on pre-Q2-2015 vehicles because the battery packs don't have the standby power supply DCDC which powers the MCU's standby power and body control module directly from the HV battery. The standby supply means the main contactors can stay open (saving ~20-30W IIRC). Without it they have to stay closed, a pump has to run to cool the DCDC, etc. (Yeah, a pump has to run any time to contactors are closed to circulate coolant through the DCDC... so... yeah).

MCU2 was only originally installed in cars with this standby supply and seems to behave... oddly... in cars that don't have it. As in, it stays awake more than it should.

I figure they'll fix that eventually.
EU cars don’t adhere to this quarter rule (i.e. mine is from November 2015 and I still have a 3G modem). Is there ang other way to check if my battery supports power standby?
 

raphy3

Member
May 5, 2017
406
854
Elsewhere
Dropped off the car yesterday and waited for an hour or so. They came back and said they'd need to keep it over the weekend and that it might be the HV contactors😤

...which is what I told them the first time since those two errors have only ever been associated with failing contactors.

I got them to wave the diagnostic fee. Either this is what they said it was in which case a second diagnostic fee would have been me paying for the MCU2 upgrade twice, or it really is a battery issue and they did nothing to fix it the first time.

I did get a 75D loaner but it just stung me on the way home seeing how fast this one chargers compared to my car. It started out at 138KW. I took this photo a few minutes later to show that it already had 5kwh added and this is not just the initial spike you get after plugging in.

View attachment 652464
Do you also notice the increased vampire drain that wk057 talked about with mcu2?
 
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sorka

Well-Known Member
Feb 28, 2015
7,878
5,781
Merced, CA
Do you also notice the increased vampire drain that wk057 talked about with mcu2?

Yes and no. With teslafi connected, vampire drain is about 50% higher except during its scheduled deep sleep. With MCU1, vampire drain was only about 10% more with teslafi connected in this scenario.

With teslafi disconnected which is basically any time I'm at home, vampire drain is about 30% less than with MCU1 in the same scenario.

But I've got the standby dc-dc converter. I believe wk057 said vampire drain would be higher if you didn't have this converter. My car was one of the first to get it back in 2015.
 
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sorka

Well-Known Member
Feb 28, 2015
7,878
5,781
Merced, CA
Dropped off the car yesterday and waited for an hour or so. They came back and said they'd need to keep it over the weekend and that it might be the HV contactors😤

...which is what I told them the first time since those two errors have only ever been associated with failing contactors.

I got them to wave the diagnostic fee. Either this is what they said it was in which case a second diagnostic fee would have been me paying for the MCU2 upgrade twice, or it really is a battery issue and they did nothing to fix it the first time.

I did get a 75D loaner but it just stung me on the way home seeing how fast this one chargers compared to my car. It started out at 138KW. I took this photo a few minutes later to show that it already had 5kwh added and this is not just the initial spike you get after plugging in.

View attachment 652464

Ugh! So now they're saying they have no idea what the problem is and they want me to authorize another 2 hours of labor to look.

Have BMS errors w094 and u008 been anything other than failing contactors?
 

gmo43

Member
Jun 24, 2014
320
549
Mesa
Finally did a full charge, don't get me going on how long it took. Anyways, a few miles off from what I had... ah almost two years ago or more? So long I can remember.

Question is... Will Tesla extend my battery warranty for that long? This is bullshit. Dont care what the issue was that brought this abundance of caution.

What the latest on lawsuit? I cant open documents on that webpage. I know someone here has an account with that court system if they could post it here or share the next deadline. Thanks
 

Droschke

Active Member
Mar 8, 2015
2,450
4,335
Future
Finally did a full charge, don't get me going on how long it took. Anyways, a few miles off from what I had... ah almost two years ago or more? So long I can remember.

Question is... Will Tesla extend my battery warranty for that long? This is bullshit. Dont care what the issue was that brought this abundance of caution.

What the latest on lawsuit? I cant open documents on that webpage. I know someone here has an account with that court system if they could post it here or share the next deadline. Thanks

What was your full range before and what is it now?
 

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