Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

scottf200

Active Member
Feb 3, 2013
4,137
3,889
Chicagoland ModelX S603
A5n411m.jpg
 

keshkkeshk

New Member
Mar 28, 2021
3
5
ca
If you lost miles, you will see them back. Simple. Don't sweat over voltage if you don't have tools to measure.
I am not sure what you mean. Are you saying just look at the miles range displayed when you charge to 90% or 100%, and that tells you if your capacity has been restored?
 

Droschke

Active Member
Mar 8, 2015
2,547
4,495
Future
I am not sure what you mean. Are you saying just look at the miles range displayed when you charge to 90% or 100%, and that tells you if your capacity has been restored?

That's one way. Comparing the car's range before 2019.16 update (May 2019) and after (like now) helps. You say your battery capacity (it translate into range) has been capped by Tesla. How do you know you are capped? What are you comparing that makes you think you are capacity capped?

Also, have you read the entire post#1? It includes how to soft-calculate your present kWh capacity (pretty good approximation).
 

JRP3

Hyperactive Member
Aug 20, 2007
20,536
48,145
Central New York
Thanks for your edit. The upper voltage was capped. Like you said, the upper end misreading was a concern and can potentially cause overcharging and fire. This was about the fire safety from day one. Others have tried to spin this.
4.2V is not a hard limit for NCA chemistry and going above it does not necessarily cause safety issues. It can however lead to faster capacity loss, something which Tesla obviously wants to avoid.
 

Droschke

Active Member
Mar 8, 2015
2,547
4,495
Future
4.2V is not a hard limit for NCA chemistry and going above it does not necessarily cause safety issues. It can however lead to faster capacity loss, something which Tesla obviously wants to avoid.

Back up your claim with a source. Overcharging NCA cells can trigger thermal runaway when heated over 65 °C.
 

JRP3

Hyperactive Member
Aug 20, 2007
20,536
48,145
Central New York

Typical charge/discharge profiles of NCA (a) and 1% [email protected] (b) full cells cycled between 2.8 and 4.35 V at 1 C. Cyclic performance (c) and corresponding CE plot (d) performed at 1 C between 2.8 and 4.35 V.

1000 th cycles in the voltage range 2.8-4.35 V at the 1 C rate. The charge and discharge capacities and the shapes of profiles at 0.2 C and 0.5 C are nearly the same. NCA materials exhibits high specific capacities when the charging voltage is increased to 4.35 V.

Rate capability measurements were performed in half coin cells cycled in the voltage window 3-4.8 V
 

Droschke

Active Member
Mar 8, 2015
2,547
4,495
Future
Section:

4.1 NCA cells
"..... It is an important finding, that overcharged NCA cells can proceed straight into thermal runaway when heated above 65 °C. ..."

Thermal runaway of commercial 18650 Li-ion batteries with LFP and NCA cathodes – impact of state of charge and overcharge​

 
  • Disagree
  • Like
Reactions: raphy3 and MP3Mike

JRP3

Hyperactive Member
Aug 20, 2007
20,536
48,145
Central New York
Note that the smallest overcharge in that study was 112% and that didn't hit thermal runaway until 144C. The 65C runaway was at 143% charge. So yeah if you extremely overcharge a cell and then bake it you'll have a problem. I'm assuming the faulty packs might have allowed something like maybe a 5% overcharge, no where near what that experiment was seeing.
 
Last edited:

dark cloud

Active Member
Apr 14, 2018
2,072
2,387
BC
Speaking of electric vehicle battery fires, here is good article about a Chevy Bolt catching fire, and explaining that the Chevy Bolt has recently received a software update for a recall to prevent fires in the car. I don't follow this as closely as many others here but I certainly haven't seen this on the front pages of the media as it is with Tesla.

Of course Chevy doesn't just sneak in the update in the middle of the night, owners unknowing other than the information of "bugs and fixes", they have to drive to the dealer for a lengthy service appointment, labeled a recall, and therefore there is full disclosure regarding the details for the update.

I suppose this is the difference between a car company and a technology company.
 

First EV

Member
Jul 7, 2018
202
673
60119
Wish they acknowledged that when we were all brining it to their attention before they got sued.

Oh well…I learned my lesson dealing with Tesla.
All of this over $1.5 million, what a stupid PR move! Yes I know that is the settlement and not necessarily what it would have cost to be honest from the beginning. But had they just been honest they could have gained/kept us early adopters as free evangelicals of the brand. But by obviously being quiet and misleading many of us will no longer buy a Tesla and instead share our bad experiences. People expect there to be issues with products, it happens, its how the manufacturer handles the issue that makes the difference and either grows loyalty or ruins it. I believe trust with the brand is broken for many and that use to be part of what set them apart from traditional auto. It will take a long time before/if I buy one again due to this. I wonder how the full self driving across the country promises a few years ago will effect people's opinion? Imagine when those $10k upgrade purchases still aren't robo taxis and the cars start wearing out, the koolaid is going to start losing its mesmerizing effects.
 

AustinP

Active Member
Apr 6, 2015
1,297
1,025
Belgium
This has been arduouus (to put it mildly).
I am satisfied that this IS the best we could get.
I believe that without my (and especially my legal team's efforts and their hired experts) we would have been permanently capped at 10% capacity loss.
My car has been restored to the full 4.2v capacity and is about 15% degraded at 190,000 miles and almost 7 years. I find that acceptable.
Additionally, the software updates through late 2020 vastly improved the diagnostic capabilities that from my expert's analysis does protect the battery from fire failure and has properly identified many faulty batteries that have been now replaced under warranty.

Charge rate reduction was not part of this lawsuit because that occurred AFTER we filed. Though that affects many more people, it will be difficult to bring action because there was never a guaranteed charge rate (the wording was always "up to"). Additionally, it is legally difficult to assess and assign a monetary loss due to the extra time now required.
Thanks DJRas !
Kudos for leading this. I can’t image how much of your time, resource or personal time it took, but you achieved something nice for so many people you don’t even know.
Our car was not affected, but I followed this closely nevertheless.
I’m part of those naive owners that still believe in Tesla’s mission (dying breed) and them trying to do honestly their best, but definitely they sidestep(ped) and sadly need such action to make things right again.
The optimist in me hope this is a wake up call for them and that they internally see this as a positive lessons learned.
If you ever travel to Belgium, I’d be glad to buy you a wel deserved beer.
 

dark cloud

Active Member
Apr 14, 2018
2,072
2,387
BC
Folks,

Honestly, I have no idea what he is talking about. What exactly they were wrong about? Anyone knows?
I assume that meant wrong about hiding what was going on, (voltage capping and range loss) instead of being forthcoming about what was going on.

Or wrong about doing anything in the first place, instead of just letting more batteries die naturally and warrantying them?


Maybe one day we will find out if there was actually an interoffice email sent to service centres to instruct them to tell owners the range loss was normal after the famous software update, or is that what they just all came up with on their own as an appropriate answer to satisfy the owner.
 

Products we're discussing on TMC...

About Us

Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.

Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


SUPPORT TMC
Top