Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[Ferrycraigs]

Question about degradation.
I ordered the obd and dongle to test my 2015 85D’s cells, which I assume is capped.

My car is rated to charge up to 270 miles @ 100% charge, which charged up to 258 as of this past May-June. Since then it charges up to 248-250, which I assume it’s because of the software updates..

I typically charge to 80%, which should give me 216 miles. However it gives 200-203 range.

My question is...is degradation solely based on the 270 mile rated capacity only, or both the 270 mile rate capacity and 15 mile discrepancy when I charge to 80%?

You are mixing two issues; degradation and battery capping. They are different. Battery capping has NOTHING to do with degradation. Also, the miles displayed at any given State of Charge is just an algorithm consumption figure used to convert energy stored in the battery into a figure. Tesla call that figure miles, but they have only a passing relationship to statute miles, or indeed the miles you should expect from your car.

All of this capping v degradation stuff is explained in easy terms on page 1 of this thread where there is a Wiki explaining it all. It will save you reading through the previous 8400+ posts.

 

[David99]

... I will probably need to start at 90% SoC and then stop at three!! SuC’s on the way

Three? That many?
Sorry, just being a little sarcastic here. My regular road trips have 15 supercharger stops


There is no lower cut off voltage. I have driven my car down to 0 and lower many times. I had one accidental shut down and one controlled, 'induced' shut down. There is no specific voltage where the car shuts down. The BMS has several metrics it goes by and voltage is just one. I'm running Scan My Tesla app all the time I'm driving and I don't see any change in the BMS behavior after the software update. The dotted line indicating the power limiter when accelerating hard or when the battery is low, corresponds approximately to 2.5 Volt. That is the hard lower limit for a lithium battery to prevent damage. But again battery voltage also depends on temperature and power draw and (as far as I can tell) discharge history.

In my shut down moments the battery was at different voltages and different load situations. It's not a simple number the BMS is going by. Being gentle on the accelerator starting well before you run very low helps stretch the last few percent out a lot. If you hammer it and then slow down the last two miles, it's too late.

I am running my battery pretty low right now on my road trips. I don't see a difference from before I was capped.[/QUOTE]

 

[liamharry]

Three? That many?
Sorry, just being a little sarcastic here. My regular road trips have 15 supercharger stops


There is no lower cut off voltage. I have driven my car down to 0 and lower many times. I had one accidental shut down and one controlled, 'induced' shut down. There is no specific voltage where the car shuts down. The BMS has several metrics it goes by and voltage is just one. I'm running Scan My Tesla app all the time I'm driving and I don't see any change in the BMS behavior after the software update. The dotted line indicating the power limiter when accelerating hard or when the battery is low, corresponds approximately to 2.5 Volt. That is the hard lower limit for a lithium battery to prevent damage. But again battery voltage also depends on temperature and power draw and (as far as I can tell) discharge history.

In my shut down moments the battery was at different voltages and different load situations. It's not a simple number the BMS is going by. Being gentle on the accelerator starting well before you run very low helps stretch the last few percent out a lot. If you hammer it and then slow down the last two miles, it's too late.

I am running my battery pretty low right now on my road trips. I don't see a difference from before I was capped.

[/QUOTE]


Thought I was bad with three (wow .. 15!!). Mind you, you could probably drive up and down the UK on that

Appreciate update re shutdown. Have driven to around 2% before and thankfully never had to get to 0%. Don’t think I would have the bottle to do that unless I had no other option.

 

[lightningltd]

OK quick question as planning a long trip in two weeks time, where I will probably need to start at 90% SoC and then stop at three!! SuC’s on the way as well as topping up off of a domestic 10 amp outlet whilst away for the week.

As in my case my Max voltage has been capped from 4.2V to 4.099V, what is the ‘shutdown’ voltage? Is it 3V? Appreciate easiest thing to do is stay above 10% SoC or higher, but curious if this has been changed as well.

I am aware on the forums of one person whose car shutdown at 13% SoC still showing, possibly a bad module, but a also some others when they have been in the 3-5% range as well. I have on the odd occasion gone down to 2-3% on a long trip and been OK with about 5 miles still showing.

I think the lowest I have managed to see with the TM Spy is 3.35V at 5.2% SoC.

What city are you starting in and ending in? May be able to suggest a better charging route.
I have been testing abetterrouteplanner.com using a normal browser and setting it to S85 with 19% degradation and it has been pretty good at its estimates. I DO override its plan to skip chargers and do not skip them, since arriving with 15-20% and making shorter legs is faster than charging to a higher SOC and skipping a charger. I only use this to plan the trip and see what chargers are along a route. Then I use the in-car nav to get to each one (I print the plan)
Since the in-car one now wants me to be at 20% arrival charge to be still green, I strive for that number. Seems to work fine this time of the year.

 

[What Gas]

You are mixing two issues; degradation and battery capping. They are different. Battery capping has NOTHING to do with degradation. Also, the miles displayed at any given State of Charge is just an algorithm consumption figure used to convert energy stored in the battery into a figure. Tesla call that figure miles, but they have only a passing relationship to statute miles, or indeed the miles you should expect from your car.

All of this capping v degradation stuff is explained in easy terms on page 1 of this thread where there is a Wiki explaining it all. It will save you reading through the previous 8400+ posts.[/

Thanks. I did read it all the way through. Based on that, I’m going to first have Tesla confirm, which doubt they will, that my car was or was no capped. I ran the formula that was stated on the first page and my final result was 74KWh. If the formula is correct then my car appears to be capped

I’m not a mathematician, but how reliable is formula?

 

[Evoforce]

Thanks. I did read it all the way through. Based on that, I’m going to first have Tesla confirm, which doubt they will, that my car was or was no capped. I ran the formula that was stated on the first page and my final result was 74KWh. If the formula is correct then my car appears to be capped

I’m not a mathematician, but how reliable is formula?

Tesla will not confirm what you are looking for. I have personal experience already.

 

[cpa]

@lightningltd

Great (or in a way a sad) story. So much similar to lots of us. Thanks for posting it. It keeps the perspective alive.



+interest and penalties

You sound like the IRS!

 

[Ferrycraigs]

Thanks. I did read it all the way through. Based on that, I’m going to first have Tesla confirm, which doubt they will, that my car was or was no capped. I ran the formula that was stated on the first page and my final result was 74KWh. If the formula is correct then my car appears to be capped

I’m not a mathematician, but how reliable is formula?

The formula is pretty accurate, ie to within 1%. But all that gives you is the capacity. It might indicate capping, but it doesn’t prove it. Only interrogating the BMS can prove capping.

I’m with the others. More chance of winning the lottery than getting Tesla to confirm they have capped it or not.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

How well would it be for the Tesla superchargers going forward?

Too many Model 3's to start with and now the impacted cars occupying the charging stalls for hours. I already see the batterygate and chargegate affected cars' impact on the supercharger availability.

Wait until Tesla removes free supercharging from our cars. Based on their behavior with #chargegate and #batterygate nothing seems off limits. There is no indication Tesla would do this, but I wouldn't put anything past them at this point.

They had to turn over everything to the NHTSA. The NHTSA isn't going to release all that data - they are poring over it looking for the evidence that will make us whole (assuming Tesla didn't take this too far and risk it all).

NHTSA's job is not to make consumers whole. NHTSA's job is to make sure car manufacturers are adhering to safety regulations. Those are two very different things. NHTSA forcing Tesla to recall batteries would certainly make affected consumers whole with regard to #batterygate, but not necessarily regarding #chargegate.

NHTSA may also find that Tesla did nothing wrong, and in my opinion that is the most likely outcome. NHTSA has found in Tesla's favor multiple times in the last few years whenever there was a formal NHTSA safety investigation. Here we do not even have a formal investigation, simply a petition review. There is nothing in Tesla's history that would indicate it would cover up a safety concern of this magnitude. Tesla knows something we do not and I wouldn't put much faith in a NHTSA resolution.

NHTSA is not looking at false advertising/fraud, removing functionality from vehicles after purchase, etc. Those are other valid concerns regarding Tesla's actions that will need to be decided by the courts or government bodies other than the NHTSA.

I have not made an appointment for the batterygate issue because based on all the reports here it's pointless. They stick to their story that everything is fine. It's so frustrating that they just claim all is fine and at the same time don't accept any data acquired on the CAN bus.

Except that your degradation in range and charging is extreme and likely more than anyone else has experienced. You may have something else going on and it would be worth having Tesla check your car. Can't hurt, right? If they say your battery is normal, ask them to show you how it compares to fleet average since that is Tesla's metric.

I agree. Of the many possible reasons for Teslas actions, I am most persuaded by the weakening battery theory. Perhaps the cut corners during the curing process or used slightly inferior materials, or whatever. But it seems very credible that whilst searching for Dendrites, Tesla found a number of batteries that were ageing' quicker than expected. And whilst they might still be within specification now, they foresaw that at some point within the 8 year Warranty period, they would fail if they kept being used at current rates. So they capped some batteries forcing owners to charge up to or below the old 85%, but for a much wider group of vehicles they have realised that pumping DC into the batteries at 90-100 kWs was more than the batteries could handle, and it was wearing them out much faster than expected. Solution, stop charging them at high kW settings.

If this theory is correct then it explains why they are happy claiming our batteries are healthy (read unhealthy but still within spec) and why so many batteries charge so much slower than they used to. This would also be something they couldn’t advertise, as the Supercharging network, and the 40 minutes to 80% is what sells cars.

If your hypothesis is correct, that means consumers are playing the lottery any time they buy a Tesla vehicle. Talk about damaging the brand. If true, I'd rather buy another manufacturer's EV. By this time next year there will be lots of options from Porsche, Ford, Audi, Mercedes, and others.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

Wait until Tesla removes free supercharging from our cars. Based on their behavior with #chargegate and #batterygate nothing seems off limits. There is no indication Tesla would do this, but I wouldn't put anything past them at this point.

I don’t know if it’s the same on your side of the Atlantic, but Tesla HAVE started doing that on this side on CPO cars. This year has been a classic case of On-the-bus Off-the-bus with free Supercharger included with new cars, then not, then back on. Most recently back on. I have a video of Elon promising Supercharging was free, and always would be. Oops.

Then there are the CPO cars. Regardless of whether the car had previously attracted Free For Life Supercharging, once sold as a CPO by Tesla they now no longer come with Free Supercharging. I assume your point related to Tesla not withdrawing it whilst eligible cars are still owned by the eligible owner. Fortunately grandfather rights still seem to apply as long as owners don’t sell. But I agree, both parts of, your final sentence.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

I don’t know if it’s the same on your side of the Atlantic, but Tesla HAVE started doing that on this side on CPO cars. This year has been a classic case of On-the-bus Off-the-bus with free Supercharger included with new cars, then not, then back on. Most recently back on. I have a video of Elon promising Supercharging was free, and always would be. Oops.

Then there are the CPO cars. Regardless of whether the car had previously attracted Free For Life Supercharging, once sold as a CPO by Tesla they now no longer come with Free Supercharging. I assume your point related to Tesla not withdrawing it whilst eligible cars are still owned by the eligible owner. Fortunately grandfather rights still seem to apply as long as owners don’t sell. But I agree, both parts of, your final sentence.

My understanding is that Tesla's policy regarding free, lifetime supercharging extends only to the next purchaser. For instance, if I as the original owner sell my car to someone they inherit my free supercharging. If the person who bought my car sells it to someone else, that person no longer gets free supercharging. This is different than my understanding when I purchased the car. At that time I understood free supercharging would remain with the vehicle for the life of the car and without any limitation to resale.

This is how Tesla is able to strip free supercharging from its used inventory. Tesla as the 2nd purchaser gets the free supercharging, which gets stripped once Tesla re-sells it again. Same thing goes for used car dealers. Once you trade-in, the dealer gets the free supercharging but it's removed once they re-sell it to someone else.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

If your hypothesis is correct, that means consumers are playing the lottery any time they buy a Tesla vehicle. Talk about damaging the brand. If true, I'd rather buy another manufacturer's EV. By this time next year there will be lots of options from Porsche, Ford, Audi, Mercedes, and others.

At best it’s a working hypothesis, but I have already been considering alternative vehicles, as mine no longer does what I need it to in terms of range. There are few credible options now, more soon. But for me the Supercharging network still features strongly in my decision making process. Despite also suffering from chargegate, the thought of long distance journeys using Fast DC chargers is not an attractive prospect.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

At best it’s a working hypothesis, but I have already been considering alternative vehicles, as mine no longer does what I need it to in terms of range. There are few credible options now, more soon. But for me the Supercharging network still features strongly in my decision making process. Despite also suffering from chargegate, the thought of long distance journeys using Fast DC chargers is not an attractive prospect.

Emphasis is mine and totally agree. The media never mentions this competitive advantage, but Tesla has the market cornered on fast charging. Based on what I see on the map, Electrify America is a joke.

Ecosystem Advantage: Tesla

 

[MP3Mike]

My understanding is that Tesla's policy regarding free, lifetime supercharging extends only to the next purchaser. For instance, if I as the original owner sell my car to someone they inherit my free supercharging. If the person who bought my car sells it to someone else, that person no longer gets free supercharging. This is different than my understanding when I purchased the car. At that time I understood free supercharging would remain with the vehicle for the life of the car and without any limitation to resale.

This is how Tesla is able to strip free supercharging from its used inventory. Tesla as the 2nd purchaser gets the free supercharging, which gets stripped once Tesla re-sells it again. Same thing goes for used car dealers. Once you trade-in, the dealer gets the free supercharging but it's removed once they re-sell it to someone else.

No that isn't how it works. Once Tesla owns the vehicle they can do anything they want including removing features. If a private dealer owns the car Tesla does not remove supercharging when they resell it.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

Tesla is doing the same here for their used inventory. They are stripping away free supercharging from vehicles Tesla is reselling as used. I heard of someone who purchased a used car w/ free lifetime supercharging (based on VIN) from a car dealer who later had his free supercharging disabled by Tesla. He was told by Tesla that there is no free supercharging on vehicles sold by Tesla or any other reseller. If I trade-in my car to Ford, for example, apparently Tesla reserves the right to remove free supercharging once the car goes to Ford.

That IS worrying. One of the factors when I bought my car was the Free-For-Life aspect, which I believed would be a strong selling point when the time came. Having just looked at My Account I note it now states simply 'Free Unlimited Supercharging'. I’m sure I had a document somewhere that stated it would stay with the car, even if I sold it.

 

[Ferrycraigs]

My understanding is that Tesla's policy regarding free, lifetime supercharging extends only to the next purchaser. For instance, if I as the original owner sell my car to someone they inherit my free supercharging. If the person who bought my car sells it to someone else, that person no longer gets free supercharging. This is different than my understanding when I purchased the car. At that time I understood free supercharging would remain with the vehicle for the life of the car and without any limitation to resale.

This is how Tesla is able to strip free supercharging from its used inventory. Tesla as the 2nd purchaser gets the free supercharging, which gets stripped once Tesla re-sells it again. Same thing goes for used car dealers. Once you trade-in, the dealer gets the free supercharging but it's removed once they re-sell it to someone else.

My recollection is slightly different.
When I bought my car it had FFL Supercharging, which stayed with the car even after selling it on.
18 months later, it was restricted to Free Supercharging as long as the purchaser owned the car, ie it lapsed on sale.
Then it was No Free Supercharging, but new owners received an annual allowance, in the order of 1000 kWh per year.
Having looked at Tesla web site today, it appears Free Supercharging is back on.

We have an expression in the UK, 'couldn’t organise a p*$$ up in a brewery.'

 

[Droschke]

No that isn't how it works. Once Tesla owns the vehicle they can do anything they want including removing features. If a private dealer owns the car Tesla does not remove supercharging when they resell it.

How long have been working for Tesla?

 

[sorka]

Worst fear confirmed. I posted several weeks back that I was concerned that Tesla might say I only needed a software update to FIX my battery. The fix for my battery prior to v9 being available would have been a replacement of module 58 or a full battery replacement.

Here's the proposed fix now:

"This is <name redacted> from Tesla service. You may remember me from the time you were having the vibration on acceleration issue with your Model S. Hope that is all still good.

Well I’m now doing the diagnosis for the battery alert you have. The repair for this is just a software update and then recheck after latest firmware is installed.

I know how you feel about the software update and I’m requesting your permission to update the firmware to 2019.40 The while idea behind the firmware update is to improve existing system. So there will be no harm done to the car due to a firmware update.


Please let me know how you would like to proceed."

 

[MP3Mike]

How long have been working for Tesla?

I have never worked for Tesla. (Nor do I currently.)

 

[MP3Mike]

The fix for my battery prior to v9 being available would have been a replacement of module 58

Did Tesla tell you that, or are you just assuming that based on the CANbus data you have?

Aren't there only 16 modules? What would module 58 be? And I haven't heard of Tesla ever just replacing a module. (@wk057 seems to think it is next to impossible to replace a module since it has to be very closely matched to the other 15.)