Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[Brass Guy]

No when a battery is replaced under warranty it keeps the same warranty period as the original battery.

The original battery warranty expires on the owner's 8th anniversary some time this year. Are you saying the replacement battery will have a new 8 year warranty (doubtful), or that the replaced battery's warranty will expire with the original warranty before it has even been in the car one year? I think the 12 month repair warranty is what will be in effect.

 

[faughtz]

News on the Apple lawsuit:

Apple to pay up to $500 million to settle iPhone throttling lawsuit in the US

 

[Chaserr]

Reasonable settlement Apple should have accepted years earlier. If Tesla does the same, all that will do is make 3rd/4th owners happy and they aren't buying cars from Tesla like us. Of course, Apple didn't have the NHTSA investigating them to speed things along.

 

[MP3Mike]

The original battery warranty expires on the owner's 8th anniversary some time this year. Are you saying the replacement battery will have a new 8 year warranty (doubtful), or that the replaced battery's warranty will expire with the original warranty before it has even been in the car one year? I think the 12 month repair warranty is what will be in effect.

I'm saying that the replaced battery's warranty will expire with the original warranty before it has even been in the car one year. What is this "12 month repair warranty" that you talk of? The new vehicle warranty document doesn't specifically state the coverage for a part replaced near the end of its warranty period. But the parts warranty document does:

Any Parts repaired or replaced under this Tesla Parts, Body & Paint Repair Limited Warranty continue to be covered by the original warranty period of the repaired or replaced Part (mentioned above in "Coverage Period") or for a period of 90 days, whichever is longer.

So I would assume that the new vehicle warranty would probably be dealt with the same way. 90-days or the expiration of the original warranty, whichever is longer.

BTW: If you pay for a battery replacement it comes with a 4-year/50k mile warranty.

 

[SmartElectric]

This is where a traditional dealership model would be useful. If I had a crippled car to trade in with BMW they would gladly make the numbers work to get me into a new one

Because like all legacy car makers, BMW is artificially inflating MSRP so that dealers have room to bargain. It's part of the trap. Sure, they offer you an incentive to move to another BMW, because that's part of the dealer middle man money making policy. When a BMW dealer does such a deal, they're absolutely making a profit on your dissatisfaction ("crippled car") and will gladly get you into another fossil fuel car. Maybe a new one won't be as bad as the last.

BMW is one of the least innovative manufacturers at the moment with respect to electric drive trains, and has indicated they have no intention to invest to the extend others are, so you're buying into a company and brand that has no future IMHO.

The new BMW 3 series has been soundly thrashed by the press for it's lack of innovation and failing to even attempt to modernize.
In fact, I'd argue ALL gas cars are "crippled", but that's just me.

 

[cpa]

"valid reason" - Tesla has engineering teams focused on the question of the valid reasons to restrict performance and charging speeds.

Are you 100% certain that Tesla has teams of engineers focused on this matter? If there are indeed these teams, our situations would have been discovered years ago and preemptive steps would or should have been taken then. I submit that there were no consistent dedicated teams of engineers over the past six years evaluating battery performance or lack thereof. It was an emergency reaction from a year ago.

There may be valid reasons for Tesla, but that does not necessarily mean that these reasons are valid for its customers. My purchase contract or warranty never disclosed that Tesla has the option to do whatever they wish to do to the batteries for whatever reason suits them at the time. T o my way of thinking, Tesla needed to disclose to us customers that they reserved the right to tinker with our battery's performance and charging speeds in the future. Instead, their promotional materials and supplemental information touted Supercharging rates and minimal reduction in range as batteries age. Their was no mention of possible precipitous reductions in range and Supercharging speeds.

Example : 90 kW peak rate in best conditions, typical roughly ~ 100-SOC rate as graphed, 40kW peak rates in winter (cold battery) , etc.

I returned from out of town last week. The temperature was 82 degrees. I had driven nearly two hours, and I plugged in at 32% on an unpaired stall. I received 62kW. Sixty-two kW! One year ago I would receive about 85kW or so in the low 30s. Wanna swap?

In my case, I have 97% original capacity, and still supercharge with a curve that closely matches newer cars with firmware that throttles them compared to experiences they had when the car was newer with older firmware. My data sharing was this : Tesla has always throttled cars, it just depended on the specific conditions, my car was throttled due to battery design of the original A pack, and that was Ok by me, and it doesn't make my car unusable in any way, yes, we charge 3x slower than a Model 3, fine, it's still a great car.

Would it be OK in your case if this summer while taking a family vacation your SC speeds topped out at 70kW at 15% SOC? Would it be OK if you woke up one morning while on vacation to see that 20-some miles had been deducted from your range? Tesla never once disclosed that SC speeds would drop significantly after X miles or years. If Tesla wishes to throttle our cars, the least they could do would be to explain in detail why they are throttled. They should start with the maximum allowed charge speed for a particular SOC and subtract from there for stall charging, battery temperature, and any other salient information.

 

[omarsultan]

I'm saying that the replaced battery's warranty will expire with the original warranty before it has even been in the car one year. What is this "12 month repair warranty" that you talk of? The new vehicle warranty document doesn't specifically state the coverage for a part replaced near the end of its warranty period. But the parts warranty document does:



So I would assume that the new vehicle warranty would probably be dealt with the same way. 90-days or the expiration of the original warranty, whichever is longer.

BTW: If you pay for a battery replacement it comes with a 4-year/50k mile warranty.

This is correct--I just had my battery replaced--the warranty does not extent beyond the original 8 year period.

 

[Chaserr]

@SmartElectric BMW has even lower margins than Tesla, so Tesla's prices are by definition even more "inflated" - at the end of the day it comes down to what people want to pay, and people want to pay more inflated costs to drive a Tesla. Unfortunately, the inflated costs of driving a Tesla haven't helped us at all here. It's too bad their high margins weren't and still aren't going into warranty support.

I'll offer my battery to swap with you along with @cpa - you've complained of your charge speeds being so much faster than ours many times as if that was a bad thing - if you're willing to swap I am to, and it looks like you have a line of people now.

@cpa I agree. tesla has LEGAL teams dedicated to this matter but if they had engineering teams on it they all appear to have been completely blindsided by the scope and impact of the "small number" of problems they created when they announced they would be "revising charge and thermal settings" starting with 2019.16 in response to those fires a year ago. Then they did nothing for a while, and everything after that has been lies, damage control, and silence which tells me the legal teams that finally took over this issue did what they always do in such situations: They told their clients to shut up.

I believe the engineers can't fix this because it was always a hardware problem - one Tesla made into a legal problem by ignoring the hardware engineers when they made software devs cover it up with band aids they thought they could hide.

 

[omarsultan]

News on the Apple lawsuit:

Apple to pay up to $500 million to settle iPhone throttling lawsuit in the US

There are a couple of points that might be worth noting as we wait for the Tesla class action to resolve itself. The actual payout is $25 per iPhone 6 or 7 so bear that in mind as folks contemplate what a Tesla settlement might look like. It think the most useful thing that came out of the Apple saga was that Apple offered $29 battery replacements in response to the negative publicity and customer outcry. Perhaps Tesla might do something similar, which might actually be more useful to folks.

 

[Chaserr]

$25 is only about 4% of an iPhone 6 price so that's not even $5000 if the same % is used on my P85. $5k is only half of the contractually agreed price Tesla itself already agreed on, and doesn't touch the reduced performance that comes with volt capping that cost much more. Considering the battery is in warranty any price to repair their hardware problems are unacceptable in any court anyway, but I would gladly accept an offer to upgrade my battery for the $5500 cost that the apple % implies - as long as it comes with clearly written terms stating no form of batterygate reductions can ever be applied again.

 

[VT_EE]

There are a couple of points that might be worth noting as we wait for the Tesla class action to resolve itself. The actual payout is $25 per iPhone 6 or 7 so bear that in mind as folks contemplate what a Tesla settlement might look like. It think the most useful thing that came out of the Apple saga was that Apple offered $29 battery replacements in response to the negative publicity and customer outcry. Perhaps Tesla might do something similar, which might actually be more useful to folks.

So an equivalent payout on a $100k Tesla would be about $2700 per affected vehicle. This assumes an iPhone cost of $900. I’m not sure if that’s good deal.

 

[SmartElectric]

I submit that there were no consistent dedicated teams of engineers over the past six years evaluating battery performance or lack thereof. It was an emergency reaction from a year ago

Tesla brought in Jeff Dahn (a great Canadian) starting in 2017 :
Supercharged success: Battery researcher Jeff Dahn wins Herzberg Gold Medal

Dahn's team focus on accelerated testing/measurement analysis of Lithium Ion battery cells.

Clearly, Tesla didn't know the future, so their engineers made good calculated estimates of the best ways to manage the battery cells so they last.

And Tesla then went to the unprecedented step of hiring the worlds foremost expert, who's methods can more accurately measure what will happen to cells over long periods of time based on measurements of cell degradation:
About

Quote : "High precision coulometry, developed here, is used to precisely measure the Coulombic Efficiency, the ratio of the discharge capacity to the charge capacity. If this ratio is exactly 1.00000.., then the Li-ion cell would last forever. "

So, yes, absolutely, yes, Tesla has teams dedicated to evaluating battery cell performance. I mean, seriously. Look at the evidence above.

I had driven nearly two hours, and I plugged in at 32% on an unpaired stall. I received 62kW. Sixty-two kW! One year ago I would receive about 85kW or so in the low 30s

Did you notice where I list 90kW as best case and 100-SOC as the charge curve.
If you do a little math, 100-32 = 68, so yeah, 62 is just about exactly what I'd see in the same conditions, as new from factory, and today.
In perfect weather and with a warm battery I see 110-SOC in a narrow subset of the charging curve (20-70% SOC).

As I posted a few dozen times in this thread, the outside temperature of 82 (or whatever) and driving on steady highway speeds does in no way heat a battery sufficiently to get maximum charge rates on my car. I use Bjorn Nyland method, accelerate full for 5 seconds, regenerate down to slow speed, repeat for about a minute, then, OH YEAH, maximum charge rates.

 

[Chaserr]

Please don't blame Jeff Dahn for this debacle, it's insulting to Mr Dahn to even insinuate he wouldn't know the difference between hardware failure and software band aid let alone vacillate between admissions of guiilt and lying for a year. If you're going to make excuses, don't place legal blame on individuals that probably don't have any part of it. Dahn has been quite busy working on Tesla's next generation of batteries, not trying to cover up the legal problems stemming from hardware problems in its second generation batteries. If Dahn is involved in batterygate at all, it's in the replacements we don't have yet (possibly not none of us if he had anything to do with the 1 replacement to batterygate that actually might have new cells he could possibly have influenced.)

Trade batteries with one of us!

 

[rafacq]

I just recently purchased a 2015 Model S 85D with 32,000 miles on it. The car is beautiful and runs superbly. Super Charging does take about 30% longer, but I charge at home, so no real issues. You guys are kind of freaking me out as to possible battery issues in my future. Should I be concerned? What are your thoughts? I am still under warranty until 2023. Thanks.

Awesome, congratulations. I bought my 2015 S85D in April 2019 with 12,004 miles. I have experienced about a 1% loss in the last 10 months. My build date is April 1015, what is yours?

 

[Guy V]

22k is bad news for folks like me coming off of warranty in six months

That's worrisome, and we already know bullet holes in the battery are not covered under the warranty.

 

[Guy V]

So an equivalent payout on a $100k Tesla would be about $2700 per affected vehicle. This assumes an iPhone cost of $900. I’m not sure if that’s good deal.

It looks like the Apple payout is 86% of the cost of a battery replacement.

I would definitely accept that from Tesla.

 

[RobPet]

A while ago I posted about my 'maximum battery level reduced' issue. The service center replaced the entire battery. Picked the car up on Friday.

I had a: 1014114 - 00 - E
Now a: 1088815 - 01 - F
Noticed a 'REMAN' on the sticker too.

It shows 377 km at 100%, my old one was degraded to 368 at 100%. So, slightly better.
Chargegate is still a thing though, same curve has the old one (below 100 kw before 20% etc.)

Wouldn't be surprised if there are no new, and apparently great, 350V, 85kWh batteries in Europe yet.

 

[bhzmark]

you were given before many specifics from different people.

name one.

All I got in in response was more personal attacks that omit any reference to specifics or legal arguments or science or evidence or logic or reason.

 

[Matias]

This is just a data point.

I have 2015 S85D, driven 91 thousand kilometers. I rarely supercharge. Yesterday I got the following results.

When I arrived to the SC, battery was almost empty (11 kms left). I had driven 1.5 hours at the speed of 110 km/h, I believe battery was warm. Outside temperature was +2 Celsius.

First speed climbed to 123 kW and I got 100 km more range in 13 min. 200 km more range came in half an hour. After that it tapered fast and from 259 to 357 it took 32 min.
All and all the results were not as bad as I was afraid of. As I rarely SC I can’t remember what it has been before.

My 100% charge is 403 km. IIRC it was 425 when new 4.5 years ago. I charge practically always at home. Car is parked outside in Helsinki, Finland, so it is most of time in relatively cold environment, average temperature is 5.9 C, so we averagely live in a fridge.

 

[SmartElectric]

@SmartElectric BMW has even lower margins than Tesla, so Tesla's prices are by definition even more "inflated"

Nice try, not a valid comparison.
Tesla is not inflated when you factor in dealers.

Tesla has no middle man dealers taking additional "margin".
BMW lower margin is because the dealer takes a big chunk too.