You are wrong. Charging will be a big money maker and Elon wants this source of income. All Tesla chargers will eventually be open to all EV's.
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Super Chargers about to get really busy in the near future
- Thread starter Midnightsun
- Start date
cpa
Active Member
Tesla has done a remarkable job the past two years in expanding and augmenting its Supercharger network.
I have followed the construction of sites around the US for eight years. We have seen from history that construction of SC sites is not a slam dunk, although it is much easier today than eight years ago. There are times when a site will pop up after two months. There are other times when a site is bogged down for any number of reasons for a year or more before construction starts. The reasons are many and beyond the scope of this discussion.
I am not familiar with Supercharging density and availability east of the Continental Divide, but have Supercharged pretty extensively in the West.
Despite Tesla's (assumed) best efforts, Supercharging out here can still be problematic, especially on weekends and during holiday periods. I think, but cannot prove, that much of the waiting and long charge times has to do with a poor navigation system that is relied upon by most drivers since the 3 and Y exploded in sales.
For example, this past Friday (May 20), Nephi, Utah, with its 8 V2 array had a queue when I arrived at 1:15 PM. This is in spite of a 12-stall V3 SC in Draper, Utah, 68 miles away north (with a slight elevation gain), and a 24-stall V3 array at Beaver, about 108 miles away south. Despite the elevation gains, common sense would say to charge more at a V3 with your 3 or Y in Draper or Beaver and skip Nephi. Yet, two of the owners I spoke with once I plugged in indicated that they followed the navigation and arrived with 40% SOC.
Similarly, at the new V3 Kingman SC at the Route 66 museum, the navigation system was froggy as I plugged in Barstow as my destination. It first routed me to Baker (about the same distance even though not a straight line). Then it switched to routing me to Needles along I-40 as an interim step, arriving with 32%. As I was approaching the onramp to I-40 to head to Needles, the navigation changed back to Baker and suggested that I return to plug in for another 15 minutes in order to reach Baker with 18%.
I continued to Needles anyway. For the next 3+hours Baker was full with a short wait for its 40 stalls. Needles had two or three (out of four) stalls available the whole time that I was there. Barstow was full for most of the three hour driving and charging time until shortly before I arrived at 4:00 when five out of sixteen were available. When I departed an hour later, it was nearly vacant.
Moreover, some locations offer better things to do over others. Yermo is about 15 miles north of Barstow. Eddie's World is there. But Barstow has a Chili's.
Sure, once L3 charging is available at most highway exits the way gas stations are today, this problem will vanish. Until such time there will be periodic times when we'll have to wait, or have to settle for 72kW at V2 locations, regardless of vehicle make. But better navigation routing should alleviate a lot of the issues that are being experienced today.
I drive a 2014 Model S85 with crippled charge rates since 2019. I average about 1kWh per minute to go from 15% to 70% at V3 or an unpaired V2 Superchargers. The above charging session takes about 40-45 minutes today. It used to take about 30 minutes.
I have followed the construction of sites around the US for eight years. We have seen from history that construction of SC sites is not a slam dunk, although it is much easier today than eight years ago. There are times when a site will pop up after two months. There are other times when a site is bogged down for any number of reasons for a year or more before construction starts. The reasons are many and beyond the scope of this discussion.
I am not familiar with Supercharging density and availability east of the Continental Divide, but have Supercharged pretty extensively in the West.
Despite Tesla's (assumed) best efforts, Supercharging out here can still be problematic, especially on weekends and during holiday periods. I think, but cannot prove, that much of the waiting and long charge times has to do with a poor navigation system that is relied upon by most drivers since the 3 and Y exploded in sales.
For example, this past Friday (May 20), Nephi, Utah, with its 8 V2 array had a queue when I arrived at 1:15 PM. This is in spite of a 12-stall V3 SC in Draper, Utah, 68 miles away north (with a slight elevation gain), and a 24-stall V3 array at Beaver, about 108 miles away south. Despite the elevation gains, common sense would say to charge more at a V3 with your 3 or Y in Draper or Beaver and skip Nephi. Yet, two of the owners I spoke with once I plugged in indicated that they followed the navigation and arrived with 40% SOC.
Similarly, at the new V3 Kingman SC at the Route 66 museum, the navigation system was froggy as I plugged in Barstow as my destination. It first routed me to Baker (about the same distance even though not a straight line). Then it switched to routing me to Needles along I-40 as an interim step, arriving with 32%. As I was approaching the onramp to I-40 to head to Needles, the navigation changed back to Baker and suggested that I return to plug in for another 15 minutes in order to reach Baker with 18%.
I continued to Needles anyway. For the next 3+hours Baker was full with a short wait for its 40 stalls. Needles had two or three (out of four) stalls available the whole time that I was there. Barstow was full for most of the three hour driving and charging time until shortly before I arrived at 4:00 when five out of sixteen were available. When I departed an hour later, it was nearly vacant.
Moreover, some locations offer better things to do over others. Yermo is about 15 miles north of Barstow. Eddie's World is there. But Barstow has a Chili's.
Sure, once L3 charging is available at most highway exits the way gas stations are today, this problem will vanish. Until such time there will be periodic times when we'll have to wait, or have to settle for 72kW at V2 locations, regardless of vehicle make. But better navigation routing should alleviate a lot of the issues that are being experienced today.
I drive a 2014 Model S85 with crippled charge rates since 2019. I average about 1kWh per minute to go from 15% to 70% at V3 or an unpaired V2 Superchargers. The above charging session takes about 40-45 minutes today. It used to take about 30 minutes.
This is a blatant, ignorant, disgusting lie, and yes, I am calling you out on it. You are a liar. The facts clearly show this is false.
This has been false for many years now, and for you to keep repeating this lie is evil. You can see it in their March first quarter financial results that were posted, and it's not even close. They have gone far beyond people's ability to attempt to make that claim anymore. Here is the 10Q:
Their net profit for this first quarter of 2022 was 3.28 billion dollars. There are no subsidies or tax credits that come anywhere close to that. They do post the totals of those incentives and tax credits on their financial statements.
The revenue from their car sales was over $15 billion. The revenue from those tax incentives was only $679 million. So their car revenue was more than 22 times the amount they got in tax incentives. For you to claim that the only reason they can make a profit is because of those tax incentives is outrageous, laughable, and deceitful.
Whether they seek them or not? Meh, possibly, just like all companies do. But they are far beyond that being a significant factor anymore.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Charging is a big money loser compared to selling cars once you factor in the charging station costs, especially with a network like Tesla where Tesla builds in spare capacity (which is part of the reason why it is so liked, vs many other charge networks that only have a handful of stalls per location). Most charge networks out there are running at a loss and are quite far from recouping the costs of the stations, and likely would not be able to do so on a pay-per-use model (which is why they all try to push subscriptions).
Undecided_2
Member
Incorrect. Be angry but at least make an effort in getting your comments factually correct. I suppose if you did you wouldn’t have anything to say on this one.
/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/22471338/0x0_Model_Y_01.jpg)
Tesla finally made a profit without the help of emission credits
A record $1.1 billion profit in the second quarter.
www.theverge.com
It’s the scale of that expansion into a truly global automaker that has finally allowed Tesla to get into the black even without the aid of regulatory credits — something Tesla needed to prove it can do considering the automakers it’s spent years selling these credits to are now creating electric vehicles and will no longer need to buy regulatory offsets.
strider
Active Member
Thanks @Rocky_H and @Undecided_2 I hadn't been following the financials recently. Looks like they crossed the line in the middle of 2021.
RTPEV
Active Member
I was thinking the same thing until the Model Y came out with TPC. If Tesla was going to cut over, it would have been then, and I really thought there was a possibility they would do it. But since they didn't do it with the Model Y, I think it's pretty clear they intend to keep TPC around long term.
Others have already chimed in on the subsidy/profit statements you made, but focusing on this particular statement, charging is never going to be a cash cow. Even at today's inflated Supercharging prices, it's just a really tough business model to make money on charging. It has to be coupled with a business like a convenience store or grocery store (or in the case of Tesla, an auto sales business) where the margins can justify the razor thin margins (or even losses) on charging.
Undecided_2
Member
Agreed. That’s the principle behind gas stations in the U.K. they’re basically grocery stores selling overpriced stuff that happens to have fuel pumps. They do make money on the fuel but not as much on the stuff they sell, hot pastries, coffees, oil, antifreeze etc.
Undecided_2
Member
Most of the land owners aren't going to agree to that service. Most of the buyers would simply want a nice coffee or drink, not some Tesla branded thing.
Basically you have discovered the food truck. The typical Supercharger doesn't have enough turn over to support that business.
Undecided_2
Member
Not just any food truck. A red Tesla food truck with coffees that are self making and serve customers on their own in 12-months.
strider
Active Member
They need the SC network to have CCS first. That will take time. What pushed me over the edge was when they re-redesigned the S and X to have the larger charge port opening. That was the first step in unifying the cars globally. CCS will be next. Anyway, we are all just speculating. Time will tell.
bradtem
Robocar consultant
Indeed. At best they could put out a car with both TPC and CCS on it. That's somewhat costly. Or ship the car with the CCS adapter on it. (Sadly this is not a J1772 adapter so you need that too.)
They could offer a car with just CCS and a reverse TPC to CCS adapter to let them use older SC stations, while new stations have both. But is that cheaper than putting both on the car?
But TPC is superior to CCS in pretty much every way. I suspect it can even handle 800v in the future. So to switch would be a downgrade to something bigger and heavier.
If the buyers of new cars need an adapter, it will make their charging experience much less nice. The current "just plug it in and walk away" is pretty sweet and people don't want to go back. Even having to get out the J1772 adapter is an annoyance, as is removing it because you must manually unlock it.
strider
Active Member
Hi there. You made my point perfectly by having it exactly backwards. Once all SCs support CCS and the cars come with CCS, presto, 0 adapters needed anywhere. The car is now natively compatible with both Tesla SC and all 3rd party chargers (I think Chademo will go away). In the distant future, TPC will be removed from SCs and anyone still driving a TPC car will just buy the CCS-TPC adapter that is rumored to be coming any day now.
bradtem
Robocar consultant
The problem is, how do you transition, and why? Remember, TPC is superior. You need a reason to transition to a bulkier, inferior connector which currently is on fewer cars and in fewer charging stations. On the surface, it sounds crazy to do so. In Europe, it was a law that required it. In the USA it will be other laws (subsidies.)
If Tesla makes SCs with only CCS, then the existing Tesla owners need an adapter. If Tesla makes cars with only CCS, they need an adapter to visit earlier superchargers until those all get a double cable. But if they are all getting a double cable, why bother switching the cars?
In the distant future when the early Teslas are getting old you could stop the double cable as you only inconvenience owners of old machines.
roblab
Active Member
From what I read, a lot of worry could be alleviated by charging at home. I don't use superchargers much at all, so I have no issues with some other vehicle brands using superchargers. But I know of others, people who have a garage even, who drive 5 miles or more to a supercharger so they can save a few bucks (a charge up for my car would normally cost me, at home, about ten bucks). I have never seen our local supercharger even half full, so that's not a problem, but what IS a problem is the local S and X owners who drive to the supercharger to "fill up" while they read the morning paper. It's not other car brands. It's these Tesla owners who want a free charge instead of paying for a charge at their own house. Buy a hundred-thousand-dollar car, and then drive five miles to where you can charge for free. HOW CHEAP CAN YOU GET?
It's not that we don't have enough empty chargers, because we do. If Tesla can get some extra remuneration from renting chargers, I say go for it. Either that or start charging for Tesla owners to fill up, just like they'd have to pay to fill up at home.
It's not that we don't have enough empty chargers, because we do. If Tesla can get some extra remuneration from renting chargers, I say go for it. Either that or start charging for Tesla owners to fill up, just like they'd have to pay to fill up at home.
strider
Active Member
Tesla has recently come out and said that they are going to dual-head SCs. That is a DONE DEAL. So, over the next few years, SCs will become dual-head. The why is to capture govt subsidies as well as open up the SC market to non-Teslas in order to expand cashflow and make charging a profit center.
At that point, there is no downside to moving the cars to CCS and only upside. It increases charging station access to Tesla customers by opening up non-Tesla chargers without an adapter and eventually saves Tesla from having to dual-head the SCs.
You can fuss about the "elegance" of TPC but it's like discussing the ergonomics of gas pumps. L2 CCS is functionally equivalent to TPC from an ergonomic standpoint so the connector that is most commonly used is no different. While L3 CCS is bulky it's something you handle for a few seconds. Heck, people are adapting to the Yoke and it is a huge ergonomic step backwards. Plenty of people use L3 CCS every day and it's fine.
At that point, there is no downside to moving the cars to CCS and only upside. It increases charging station access to Tesla customers by opening up non-Tesla chargers without an adapter and eventually saves Tesla from having to dual-head the SCs.
You can fuss about the "elegance" of TPC but it's like discussing the ergonomics of gas pumps. L2 CCS is functionally equivalent to TPC from an ergonomic standpoint so the connector that is most commonly used is no different. While L3 CCS is bulky it's something you handle for a few seconds. Heck, people are adapting to the Yoke and it is a huge ergonomic step backwards. Plenty of people use L3 CCS every day and it's fine.
I thought I read somewhere that the connectors on superchargers only last for about 1000-2000 mate/demate cycles. So having two connectors would reduce wear and would probably make it where they don't have to replace them as often. Unlike a home EVSE, they're not replacing these connectors because they get old or the station wears out.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Even for L2 it's not equivalent. I was pointed out by others in article comments that the J1772 latch (which is a manual tab) makes it more clunky to use than both TPC and Type 2 (used in Europe) which instead has the locking pin system. That tab style locking system is a source of breakage and failure in a lot of public EVSEs and chargers. So Tesla has an incentive to keep using TPC.
There was some speculation about Tesla moves when they listed some Gen 2 J1772 wall connectors last year, but apparently they were just clearing out old stock and it looks like there are no near term plans to switch to J1772 on the cars.
As for the talk about dual head stations, there are no details on the scale yet (will it be done on all stations, all stalls of stations, or only a subset of either) and given Elon's timing, it's unknown how long even the first ones will arrive.
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