Superchargers to be limited in future? coming to McDonalds?

[Dave EV]

Ultimately the only way to fairly allocate limited resources is to charge for them.

+1.

Here's just a few random examples of how I've heard of people have abusing free charging:

1. Nissan dealers - just about all dealers have had issues with people plugging in and hopping into another car while leaving the car there on the charger ALL DAY and the dealer stuck with a car blocking the station.
2. Mitsubishi HQ - Volt driver would pull up in the evening with bike on the back, plug in the car and ride off picking up the car in the morning.
3. Blink DCQC stations - people complaining about the $5 charging fee recently implemented because they were counting on them to be free while they drive 120+ miles/day. Or people using DCQC as their only method of charging simply because it was free.

Tragedy of the commons comes to mind...

 

[Larry Chanin]

Larry,

Devils advocate: Where does it say the purpose of the SC network is solely for use during extended road trips? I have heard good arguments on both sides of this issue but haven't seen Tesla even so much as imply that the SC network was restricted.

Jim,

Devils advocate: Where does it say that the purpose of the Supercharger network is to provide locals free power?

The point I was making is if a few people abuse the priviledge of using a Supercharger, say daily charging at a Supercharger, such that it effect the stated purpose of the network to facilitate road trips for the majority of owners, then Tesla will and should take measures to filter out the abusers.

It's that simple. We don't need to quote line and verse the statements Tesla has made. We merely have to apply a little common sense.

Larry

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Tesla has promised "the mall" that owners would do exactly that.

Hi Ron,

Really?

Some how I seriously doubt Tesla would be telling prospective hosts that each Model S at will park their cars at the Supercharger stall for hours on end while shopping at the mall.

Larry

 

[doug]

...I assume TMC can track SC users. TMC will know in weeks if in fact this SC use by folks is an issue. TMC knows where we live, the location of our MS, the VIN#, etc.

As far as I know we are not tracking the Supercharger use of our members.
Just a quick note on initialisms: For the purpose of this forum, TM = Tesla Motors. TMC = Tesla Motors Club, i.e. this website and/or its members. Otherwise, you are correct. Tesla does have all that info.

Perhaps Tesla may need to create a Local only bay?

This isn't a bad idea. I wouldn't make it Locals only, but a single bay locals can use while travelers can use all the bays. That way supercharging is still available for everyone but the locals may have to wait in a "locals' queue" which may adjust the equation for them. So many "travelers only" bays, while there are still some available for locals to use.

Ideal... advanced reservation subscription... You can reserve a spot with a charge as long as you are headed in that direction (gps verified) and you will arrive in time for the reservation.

There are plenty of schemes that Tesla could implement. They know where the cars are, they know where the superchargers are, they can know when a car is supercharging and its SOC. I think at the very least passing an anonymized form of this information on to other Model S drivers would be cool and helpful.

When asked about some reservation scheme, however, Jerome said their goal was simply to have more stations than necessary. While that's a nice goal, I do think at least passing on some data to drivers could help make better use of the existing SC resources.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I do think at least passing on some data to drivers could help make better use of the existing SC resources.

That sounds like something that can be done with software, and be transparent (and free) to the end user. If I'm leaving San Francisco southbound, and see on the center console that there are 14 chargers all pumping away with cars all in low SOC% states in Gilroy, I'll likely assume that there is a line and make other arrangements.

 

[neroden]

This may be a little counterintuitive, but this is what I'd do if I were Tesla.

Keep the charging free for all Model S owners.

However, charge for the parking space, at the going local rate (often very low, maybe 50 cents an hour). Nobody at Tesla ever said that they were going to offer free parking.

This will deter locals and will not significantly affect road trippers.

 

[Citizen-T]

Hey, can we talk about this McDonald's thing? Much bigger deal if it turns out to be true.

 

[nwdiver]

This SC debate can be fairly easily resolved with more abundant 80 amp L2 charging. I'd like to know why Tesla isn't giving HPWCs out like candy to any business willing to make them available for public use.

 

[brianman]

I have seen a few people talk about the "intention" of the SC network. Where has Tesla ever said what the intent was? Specifically that one type of MS owner charging is preferred over another? Just curious

The spirit is pretty clear (to me at least) in this statement:

Tesla Superchargers allow Model S owners to travel for free between cities along well-traveled highways in North America. Superchargers provide half a charge in about 20 minutes and are strategically placed to allow owners to drive from station to station with minimal stops.

Supercharger | Tesla Motors

They don't come right out and say "If you're camping out at the Supercharger 2 blocks from your house, you're kind of a jerk" but that's what I read between the lines.

 

[NoMoGas]

I would use that knowing that the free ones will likely be loaded up with freeloaders and car-parkers (parked, not charging).

Remember, if Tesla sells a million cars, it doesn't take very many freeloaders and car-parkers to completely block out an entire Supercharger location.

Guys, can can start by agreeing to stop calling people who paid 100K for a car and $2500.00 for access "freeloaders".

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Jim,

Devils advocate: Where does it say that the purpose of the Supercharger network is to provide locals free power?

The point I was making is if a few people abuse the priviledge of using a Supercharger, say daily charging at a Supercharger, such that it effect the stated purpose of the network to facilitate road trips for the majority of owners, then Tesla will and should take measures to filter out the abusers.

It's that simple. We don't need to quote line and verse the statements Tesla has made. We merely have to apply a little common sense.

Larry

Larry, your point is well taken. Im not saying you are wrong, I just think it's a difficult argument to make when it wasn't part of the deal when we purchased the car. My sales rep specifically sold me the SC network and invited me to use it locally including in the hypothetical that as the network grows (presumably to my vicinity) I could use it every day. Others have reported this as well. I think this is a healthy discussion and really comes down to etiquette and a bit of common sense.

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This SC debate can be fairly easily resolved with more abundant 80 amp L2 charging. I'd like to know why Tesla isn't giving HPWCs out like candy to any business willing to make them available for public use.

+1 ABSO FRICKEN LUTELY

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The spirit is pretty clear (to me at least) in this statement:

Supercharger | Tesla Motors

They don't come right out and say "If you're camping out at the Supercharger 2 blocks from your house, you're kind of a jerk" but that's what I read between the lines.

I would be inclined to agree with you... until you talk to a sales rep who tells you something different.

I think we can see what Tesla's main goal is... "free" (pre-paid) power to everyone and more chargers then we'll ever need.

 

[brianman]

I think we can see what Tesla's main goal is... "free" (pre-paid) power to everyone and more chargers then we'll ever need.

I completely agree this is the way out. Saturate the demand. Don't ration supply. Oops, my politics are showing probably.

 

[dirkhh]

Guys, can can start by agreeing to stop calling people who paid 100K for a car and $2500.00 for access "freeloaders".

Hear, hear. I have an S60 and paid explicitly for the right to use SCs free of usage charges. But by definition not for free.

I would be inclined to agree with you... until you talk to a sales rep who tells you something different.

I think we can see what Tesla's main goal is... "free" (pre-paid) power to everyone and more chargers then we'll ever need.

Totally agree. Problem is that that may not be economically feasible. If n% of your customers abuse the service, then the price per user goes up. Everyone is paying (up front) for the abuse by the few. Or paying indirectly by not getting the service they paid for (road trip, all chargers blocked).

The only way out I see is that future customers can't be sold "unlimited free charging, even close to home". Especially not when the Gen3 sells hundreds of thousands of units a year.

But I don't think it would be advisable to change the rules on the early adopters / existing customers.

 

[nwdiver]

Restricting use to ~5x/month/SC would probably be feasible even with 100s of thousands of GEN IIIs. Certainly going to interesting to see how this plays out. Like with most things... 10% of Tesla owners are going to be 90% of the problem.

It would be awesome so simply scatter SCs everywhere and not worry about it but IMO that would be unnecessary and cost prohibitive. More 70-80amp L2s would also help relieve some of the pressure.

 

[NigelM]

Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that if you feel the Superchargers are overloaded now, wait till next year when there's double the number of Ss on the road, or wait ~4 years and see the 000s of Gen III lining up to use them. My point is that plenty is going to change in the near-medium term; hence such ideas as the McDonalds concept.

Hey, can we talk about this McDonald's thing? Much bigger deal if it turns out to be true.

McDonalds sucks. That would be the last place I would want to stop and hang-out....but there's plenty of folks who like it and it does offer a solution to the angst up-thread.

 

[richkae]

Guys, can can start by agreeing to stop calling people who paid 100K for a car and $2500.00 for access "freeloaders".

No we can not. The first time I get to a supercharger I need that is blocked by a bunch of freeloaders who could more easily charge at home but are not doing so because they are cheap I will be annoyed with how rude they are, and how stupid Tesla is for allowing them to block access to a resource I *need* and I *paid* for.
I would greatly prefer to pay for every supercharging session so that this does not happen.

Paying for supercharger access is not about pre-paying for electricity, it is about convenient long distance travel. If the stations are always blocked by freeloaders the system will fail to serve its purpose and Tesla will fail to sell cars.

 

[gaswalla]

No we can not. The first time I get to a supercharger I need that is blocked by a bunch of freeloaders who could more easily charge at home but are not doing so because they are cheap I will be annoyed with how rude they are, and how stupid Tesla is for allowing them to block access to a resource I *need* and I *paid* for.
I would greatly prefer to pay for every supercharging session so that this does not happen.

Paying for supercharger access is not about pre-paying for electricity, it is about convenient long distance travel. If the stations are always blocked by freeloaders the system will fail to serve its purpose and Tesla will fail to sell cars.

yep

 

[aviators99]

Hi Ron,

Really?

Some how I seriously doubt Tesla would be telling prospective hosts that each Model S at will park their cars at the Supercharger stall for hours on end while shopping at the mall.

Larry

What do you think Tesla said to the Gulf Coast mall when they pitched the idea? That they should just allow them to be put there for environmental purposes? You can't do much shopping or dining in 20 minutes.

From the PSL article:

“It will be so nice to have travelers pull off the highway and visit our local stores and restaurants while their cars are recharging,”

Musk says that Tesla will continue to increase the number of stalls over time, so that overcrowding will not be an issue. But unless they are just going to put these at rest stops, patronage of the local restaurants and other businesses will be a key point to their rollout. I would plan for 2 hours of time for each slot, which means 1.5 hours of time taking up the slot without charging.

Some of the ideas presented in another thread about ways to charge independent of where you are parked would be a good solution. But taking away the ability for the businesses to benefit economically will only hurt. And 20 minutes is not enough.

 

[dsm363]

No we can not. The first time I get to a supercharger I need that is blocked by a bunch of freeloaders who could more easily charge at home but are not doing so because they are cheap I will be annoyed with how rude they are, and how stupid Tesla is for allowing them to block access to a resource I *need* and I *paid* for.
I would greatly prefer to pay for every supercharging session so that this does not happen.

Paying for supercharger access is not about pre-paying for electricity, it is about convenient long distance travel. If the stations are always blocked by freeloaders the system will fail to serve its purpose and Tesla will fail to sell cars.

Totally agree. I wouldn't mind paying something small. Even $2 might be enough to negate the savings someone could get by just charging at home. That said, they did promise free power.

I think it is likely they will pick a date and say 'all Model Ss sold after this date will be limited to X number of free Supercharges per month' or some other scheme to reduce local users.

Whatever scheme they come up with it will be very difficult to make 'fair' to everyone and someone will be upset as usual.

 

[wraithnot]

I COMPLETELY understand that folks traveling long distance would feel slighted having to wait for a local to charge up before he or she can move on with their family to their final destination. And the argument that the SC system isn't designed for throngs of locals isn't lost on me but neither is it lost on me that unlimited access to the SC network is advertised, and purchased without restriction. To restrict the usage of the SC network after the fact would be, in my opinion, a pr nightmare for a company that has prided itself in standing behind its word.

At the moment, when you pull into a supercharger bay (let's say charging bay 1B) and someone is already charging at the bay paired with the one you pulled into (bay 1A in this case), they get up to 90 kW and you get what's left over until they are done. If the first car is a local who has stopped at that supercharger more than some number of times in the past 30 days, it seems like they could re-write the software to give the new arrival (assuming they're a non-local) the full power and dial back the local to 30 kW until the traveler is done charging. This would be a pretty subtle change that would give the advantage to the person using the supercharger for long distance travel while keeping supercharger usage free for all. Perhaps this is what the person at the Tesla store meant.

 

[brianman]

Totally agree. I wouldn't mind paying something small. Even $2 might be enough to negate the savings someone could get by just charging at home. That said, they did promise free power.

I only partially agree with you guys.

I don't mind the $ aspect of paying. I don't want the logistics of paying though (think back to the superswapper demo).

 

[Galve2000]

No we can not. The first time I get to a supercharger I need that is blocked by a bunch of freeloaders who could more easily charge at home but are not doing so because they are cheap I will be annoyed with how rude they are, and how stupid Tesla is for allowing them to block access to a resource I *need* and I *paid* for.
I would greatly prefer to pay for every supercharging session so that this does not happen.

Paying for supercharger access is not about pre-paying for electricity, it is about convenient long distance travel. If the stations are always blocked by freeloaders the system will fail to serve its purpose and Tesla will fail to sell cars.

Very well said!