Suspension Problem on Model S

[dhanson865]

He owns a separate leasing company, that included passenger vehicles. The leasing company appears to be separate from the catering business. I don't see any evidence he's leasing the vehicle out either, and certainly haven't implied such. I'm asking for clarification of this, however.

If the leasing company and the catering company both have 140 vehicles it seems to me this is just a tax shelter arrangement where the catering company is leasing the vehicles from the leasing company and both are part of the same real world operation that I would call a business.

If you look at the Google Maps satellite view you'll see a dark pickup truck and a white car (the Tesla?) and nothing that looks like a business. I see a swimming pool and a house, maybe more cars in a garage that we can't see but no reason to think anyone comes by to pick up or drop off cars as the driveway is blocked easily by one or two cars and you don't see cars parked on the side of the street.

 

[MikeC]

Singer (Keef). He has a book:

Amazon.com: The Great SunCube Swindle eBook: Keef Wivaneff: Kindle Store

Thanks, hadn't watched closely when I asked the question. I never saw a real live troll before. So, aside from the singing, he wasn't even the craziest person in that news report. Maybe a little vindictive and overly involved in something he didn't need to be, but what's the deal with trolling Tesla? Does he really think the Model S is like one of those sun cubes the guy was selling?

 

[CButterK]

Thanks, hadn't watched closely when I asked the question. I never saw a real live troll before. So, aside from the singing, he wasn't even the craziest person in that news report. Maybe a little vindictive and overly involved in something he didn't need to be, but what's the deal with trolling Tesla? Does he really think the Model S is like one of those sun cubes the guy was selling?

He appears to be trolling all of Musk's businesses... Tesla, Space-X, Solar City. Leads me to believe he has an agenda with Elon Musk, not specifically Tesla.

 

[GoTslaGo]

Thanks, hadn't watched closely when I asked the question. I never saw a real live troll before. So, aside from the singing, he wasn't even the craziest person in that news report. Maybe a little vindictive and overly involved in something he didn't need to be, but what's the deal with trolling Tesla? Does he really think the Model S is like one of those sun cubes the guy was selling?

I'm guessing he found himself liking his 15 minutes of fame with Sun Cube, and any profits he made from his book.

He probably fancies himself a de-bunker of green "myths" and now has a mission (and economic incentive) to "debunk" these green companies. Then once he "succeeds" he gets more fame, more chance to sing a little jingle with an adoring commentator, and more money and book rights.

And don't worry, he'll be back. If you look hard enough he's popped in and out of multiple threads with the usual green conspiracy theory junk, using different names.

 

[lklundin]

That's a fair request. I know some of you view Musk's tweets as the final word on any dispute. I'll wait for an announcement from the NTSHA. If there were 37 false reports, I hope they find a way to prosecute. I agree everyone needs to calm down and wait to see where this leads. The press is on the case will have some answers. We may hear from some folks that thought they were previously silenced, now candid about their experiences.

Instead of apologizing for unjustly rocking the boat, you are using a straw man to imply that not just a few trolls but "everyone needs to calm down and wait to see where this leads". But the fact is that this thread has a number of heads who remained cool, while individuals such as you were jumping at any chance to smear Tesla.

Also, "the press is on the case" would typically mean that they are just skimming through this very long thread, trying to find something that supports their pre-existing agenda. Thus we end up with pathetic articles such as the NYT one you linked to that says:
'“Goodwill” is the term Tesla used to refer to any repairs or compensation it made because of a suspension failure'.
So your attempt at saying "I was not wrong, at least not yet" is equally pathetic.

The only actual, breaking news I can see coming from this is that the SEC opens investigations regarding stock price manipulations or that NHTSA opens investigations against falsely submitted complaints.

While I cannot say if it is a deliberate strategy, I think it speaks well of Elon Musk that his companies have stayed above opening law suits for example for defamation and instead kept to their innovative work, trusting that the truth will come out and exonerate their efforts.

 

[wdolson]

I skipped past 20 pages in this thread. It really exploded Friday!

Just to put things in perspective, I Googled car recall and suspension failure. There were a number of articles about Tesla, a lot of them are partially or entirely sourcing this thread I think. However, it comes up with a lot of other car makers suffering suspension problems:

Toyota Recall For Lower Ball Joint Issue : Toyota Tundra Common Suspension & Steering Problems
Toyota recalling more than 1 million vehicles
Volkswagen Beetle, Jetta Recalled For Suspension Problems: 442,000 Vehicles Affected
Maserati recalls 26k sedans for rear suspension failure
Ford Recalls 262,000 Vehicles for Transmission, Suspension, Other Issues
Hyundai Recalls

These were among the first 15 results that came up. Toyota, the paragon of quality in the automotive industry has had multiple recalls due to suspension problems in the last 15 years. Many car makers have had to recall their cars due to suspension failure problems.

Car suspensions are complex mechanisms that also take a beating as well as get exposed to a lot of muck and slop in the winter as well as salt on roads in some places. Engineering them is a constant trade off between the weight of the car as well as the space the suspension takes up vs the strength of the suspension. Vehicles built for off road use, carrying heavy loads, or towing have tougher suspensions but the trade off is more weight which will reduce energy efficiency. Passenger cars intended for driving on paved roads most of the time have lighter suspensions than other vehicles.

Some of the best carmakers in the world have had problems with suspensions. And we all haven't died from the wheels falling off our cars. Some people have, but probably more people get killed by lightning every year than die from a suspension failure on their car.

 

[techmaven]

Also this thread: control arm snaps driving over a pothole:
Pothole in Vidor Texas Took the P85 Down

That vehicle was one of three damaged at the same time. Quick, you and Keef need to find out what make and model the other two were so that you can warn NHTSA and the public! This is a safety issue!

 

[lklundin]

It would be amazing if there were no suspension issues on cars here in Norway. Salt is used extensively for ~5 months of the year, and our roads are pretty terrible.

But this should affect cars of all brands, is that actually the case?

Also, and please correct me if I am wrong, but is salt not ineffective at temperatures way below freezing? So I would guess that in Norway, a road would tend to be either terrible (because it is way up in the snow buried mountains, where there is little traffic and where salt would have little effect), or salted (because it is in or close to a bigger city which is then typically coastal thus with not so low temperatures and more traffic, thus better).

Without even considering the amount of road per capita, I think the roads in Norway are not so terrible.

Since you mention trolls, and since actual trolls live in Norway, I thought I would point to this piece of Norwegian culture:

Edvard Grieg - Peer Gynt Suites - 1 and 2

(which incidentally also is used in one video of robots in the Freemont factory).

PS. Using goo.gl to get the thing started at the right moment

 

[Yggdrasill]

But this should affect cars of all brands, is that actually the case?

Yes. I had to replace stuff in the suspension on my Honda CR-V all the time, despite it's reputation for being reliable. Also on my current Hyundai. Whenever I have my car in for servicing, I just assume there's something in the suspension that will need replacement.

Also, and please correct me if I am wrong, but is salt not ineffective at temperatures way below freezing? So I would guess that in Norway, a road would tend to be either terrible (because it is way up in the snow buried mountains, where there is little traffic and where salt would have little effect), or salted (because it is in or close to a bigger city which is then typically coastal thus with not so low temperatures and more traffic, thus better).

They use salt in the +5 to -15C range. That's most days for around 5 months in most of the country.

They don't use salt below -15C and if there's heavy snow so the roads in the mountians aren't usually salted, but there's plenty of pretty bad roads that are salted. Most roads between the smaller cities aren't particularly good, and are salted.

Without even considering the amount of road per capita, I think the roads in Norway are not so terrible.

They are generally pretty bad.The average speed limit here on the major roads ( International E-road network - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) is 70.3 km/h, where for instance Sweden has 99.8 km/h and Gemany has 114 km/h. It's even worse on the smaller roads. (Fun fact: Only Albania has a lower average speed limit!)

 

[NOLA_Mike]

The case is far from closed, The NTSHA says "The agency has not opened a formal investigation and said late Friday that the inquiry was a "routine data collection." So I think I'll see where "routine data collection" goes and keep following the Lamestream media on this. I do not own any stock in Tesla Motors and could care less, whether it's up or down. My interest on this board is a potential purchase of the Model X, if the doors can be fixed.

I wonder if they made that statement before they discovered that most (37 out of 40?) of the complaints related to alleged suspension issues on Model S were frivolous?

I assume they begin inquiries based on the number of legitimate reports they receive and it's possible that once they discovered there were less than 10% of what they originally thought they may have closed the inquiry?

Mike

 

[lklundin]

They are generally pretty bad.The average speed limit here on the major roads ( International E-road network - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) is 70.3 km/h, where for instance Sweden has 99.8 km/h and Gemany has 114 km/h. It's even worse on the smaller roads. (Fun fact: Only Albania has a lower average speed limit!)

On reflection, I am unsure if this metric conveys a fair image of the Norwegian roads. Norway has almost no motorways, so that lowers the average speed limit significantly all by itself. Their normal (i.e. non-divider) type roads are often in mountains, so the curves impose below-average limits also on them. It is actually perfect for a Tesla, well maintained road surfaces, relatively low speed limit (so less disadvantage to ICE's that otherwise can compensate for poor fuel economy at high speeds with quick refueling) and lots of curves, where the low center of gravity becomes very useful. But I digress.

My point is that these restrictions are due to the geography, and that the actual road surface (which is of relevance to this thread on vehicle suspension) is actually quite good in Norway. Yes, the average speed in Sweden is higher, still Sweden has a huge amount of unpaved roads (i.e. "bad" roads), but they are often straight with no traffic and a relatively high speed limit (which is used to the fullest there) - in addition to more actual motorways. Your link did not point me to the average limits, so what is the average limit in Switzerland (which has excellent roads, but also lots of mountains and an irritatingly low motorway speed limit of 120 km/h) ?

My avatar photo is from a death-defying cycling journey through Eastern Europe, and if my experience in the Albanian part of Kosovo says anything of Albanian traffic, then there is no comparison to Norway.

 

[X Yes?]

I wonder if they made that statement before they discovered that most (37 out of 40?) of the complaints related to alleged suspension issues on Model S were frivolous?

I assume they begin inquiries based on the number of legitimate reports they receive and it's possible that once they discovered there were less than 10% of what they originally thought they may have closed the inquiry?

Mike

Mike,

It's entirely possible. We might even get a case closed, but that is likely a ways off. Tesla has a relatively few number of cars on the road, so 3 failures might be a cause for concern. There seems to be the post of 37 wrecks on the site. Despite who posted them, these could be under investigation to determine whether suspension failure happened before or after the wrecks.

 

[bonnie]

From a regulatory point of view, once an allegation is made, the regulatory body has no choice but to investigate. The easiest example for everyone to understand is if a cranky neighbor reports 'child abuse!!!' because they can. Dept of Child Services is obligated to investigate because public safety overrides what appears to be a cranky neighbor.

Medical devices, same thing. A disgruntled employee can anonymously report issues and (speaking from personal experience), the FDA arrives and finds the allegations completely unfounded.

My best guess from the outside (and that's where we're all standing, no one actually KNOWS what NHTSA is doing because none of us outside of Tesla have communicated with them on this) is that they saw the number of reports, publicly inflamed by an irresponsible blogger, and felt they needed to react quickly because it was in the news. Now that they've looked at the reports a little more closely, they're seeing a lot of 'cranky neighbor' things there. But to be on the safe side, they've encouraged anyone to report who hasn't previously. And unless they get a wave, there is no investigation.

And I am also relatively sure that the next time this scenario plays out, NHTSA won't be played quite so easily. They will still need to investigate, but won't be so quick to make public statements. They're only human.

 

[X Yes?]

Via @elonmusk:

Also:

Haha.

The high fives are a tad premature here:

"NHTSA confirmed today that they found no safety concern with the Model S suspension and have no further need for data from us on this matter." They seem to be able to make a determination at this time without more information from Tesla.

"Of greater concern: 37 of 40 suspension complaints to NHTSA were fraudulent, i.e. false location or vehicle identification numbers were used" That's likely a concern for Mr. Musk, but we don't have any indication that the NTSHA is not examining those wrecks for suspension flaws

 

[Yggdrasill]

On reflection, I am unsure if this metric conveys a fair image of the Norwegian roads. Norway has almost no motorways, so that lowers the average speed limit significantly all by itself. Their normal (i.e. non-divider) type roads are often in mountains, so the curves impose below-average limits also on them. It is actually perfect for a Tesla, well maintained road surfaces, relatively low speed limit (so less disadvantage to ICE's that otherwise can compensate for poor fuel economy at high speeds with quick refueling) and lots of curves, where the low gravity becomes very useful. But I digress.

I agree that the low speeds are good for range. But the incessant turning back and forth as you drive along causes more wear and tear on the suspension. The ideal useage for the suspension is to drive straight on a level road.

My point is that these restrictions are due to the geography, and that the actual road surface (which is of relevance to this thread on vehicle suspension) is actually quite good in Norway.

The road surfaces are a mixed bag to say the least. In spring, the frozen ground thaws unevenly, causing something we call "telehiv". Basically a road that can be perfectly level in summer turns into a wavy road, and the asphalt starts to crack and potholes form. The only way to avoid this is to build the roads on 1-2 meters of gravel that can drain away the water (less if there's bedrock). This is done on some of the roads built in the last 30-40 years, but it's very expensive, so it's not common outside the main roads. Also, sometimes the engineers screw up the numbers, so it has occured that new motorways have been pretty much destroyed a few months after completion. Here are some of the worst roads in the Trondheim-region: Er dette verstingveiene i Trøndelag

In winter, you also have ice-accumulation on the non-salted roads, and in spring, when this ice starts to melt, it melts unevenly, so that the roads become really uneven like this: Er dette en vei?

Yes, the average speed in Sweden is higher, still Sweden has a huge amount of unpaved roads (i.e. "bad" roads), but they are often straight with no traffic and a relatively high speed limit (which is used to the fullest there) - in addition to more actual motorways. Your link did not point me to the average limits, so what is the average limit in Switzerland (which has excellent roads, but also lots of mountains and an irritatingly low motorway speed limit of 120 km/h) ?

Switzerland has 93.9 km/h. Theres a list here: Norske veier fortsatt blant Europas dårligste

My avatar photo is from a death-defying cycling journey through Eastern Europe, and if my experience in the Albanian part of Kosovo says anything of Albanian traffic, then there is no comparison to Norway.

How they drive and how the roads are is two entirely different things.

 

[jerry33]

Besides, how many Model S have been driven more than 70K miles by now? Bragging about failure rates when > 50% of Tesla cars are less than a year old is just fooling around. We need to check failure rate in Model S cars with high mileage and/or age.

Mine has over 70K. No suspension issues, and no issues that weren't "first week of ownership" issues.

 

[bonnie]

So you are suggesting that 37 fraudulent complaints to the NHTSA raise ongoing concerns about a safety issue, as opposed to a concern about a flagrant abuse of NHTSA's regulatory process?

Would you also suggest that 37 fraudulent 911 calls suggest that a crime is being committed, other than the crime of distracting the 911 operators from doing their job?

This is utter nonsense.

Agreed. I don't know about NHTSA, but I do know that people are prosecuted for knowingly providing false reports to child protective agencies, FDA, fire departments, law enforcement, etc. False reporting is also a public safety issue because it diverts resource unnecessarily.

If NHTSA can identify the people responsible for the false reports, I'd be willing to bet there would be some type of consequence. And there should be. People forget or don't care that they could cause real harm by clogging reporting systems. In this case, I'm going with 'they didn't care'.

 

[ohmman]

Yes, if someone calls and reports a crime (but was not the victim), it's still possible a crime was committed.

The analogy doesn't work because the reporter has something to gain from being truthful. Falsifying VINs make little sense.

I can assure you that the SEC will be investigating this issue the same way they investigate false press releases. I have been directly involved with them on numerous fraud claims over the last two decades, and plan to reach out to the people I know on Monday to see how they are proceeding. This is a serious crime. And a note, I am not a TSLA shareholder, except potentially incidentally through funds. I was a shareholder for a very brief time on the most recent secondary offering where I got a piece of the IPO. I sold the same day. So this isn't about my investment, it's about taking advantage of others with falsified statements.

I do think the NHTSA should keep their ears open for more reports, and I'm guessing they will. For now, though, it's likely that the only government entity busy with this issue is the SEC.

 

[EinSV]

Yes, if someone calls and reports a crime (but was not the victim), it's still possible a crime was committed.

If someone makes 37 fraudulent 911 calls, or 37 fraudulent reports to the NHTSA, that suggests nothing other than a clear abuse of the system. Whoever engages in that conduct is interfering with employees whose job it is to protect the safety of the public.

To suggest otherwise, as you are, is very troubling.

 

[Skotty]

One probably final thought from me -- based on the latest info, I don't think there is anything wrong with Tesla's suspension.

My nit to pick with some folks on this thread, however, remains. The issue of driving on dirt roads may have helped advance whatever the problem was on this particular car, but it was not improper use of the vehicle. It is perfectly fine to drive cars on dirt roads. It especially doesn't matter that a Tesla is an expensive luxury car. A car being an expensive luxury car does not make it inferior to other cars. In my opinion, I would suggest people feel entirely free to drive their Tesla down dirt roads as much as they like. It won't be a problem.