Tesla Begrudgingly “Recalls” FSD Beta for NHTSA

I'm sure this will be a sticky on all of the vehicle forums shortly:

NHTSA Recalls Every Tesla Equipped With 'Full Self-Driving Beta' Over Crash Risks

The safety agency is requiring a software update to Tesla Model S, Model X, Model 3 and Model Y vehicles, saying FSD Beta "may allow the vehicle to act unsafe."

jalopnik.com

(moderator note: related threads here…)
FSD Recall? in Software
Recall FUD in Uk

"Full Self Driving Tesla" by rulenumberone2 is licensed under CC BY 2.0.
Admin note: Image added for Blog Feed thumbnail

 

[CyberGus]

What is the difference between stating something that is wrong versus lying?

"The word 'inflammable' refers to something that something is not flammable." - This is wrong.
"I am the duly elected governor of Arizona." - This is a lie.

 

[2101Guy]

Do you even know how long legacy OEMs take to fix recalls ... ?

"Two weeks"

 

[CyberGus]

None of this is happening right now though. Maps even dictate what signs to read. And they seem to have totally neglected updates and maintenance of this map data.

Keep in mind that Tesla needs FSD to make mistakes in order to learn from them. Having highly accurate map data would just prevent the NN from learning how to deal without it.

As long as FSD is in beta (thus requiring L2 driver attention) there is no benefit to Tesla in adding better sensors, accurate maps, or other crutches.

 

[CyberGus]

Hats off to the pessimists. I will enjoy my life, and my car. Thanks to the tens of thousands of visionaries and workers at Tesla for making such a sublime and revolutionary vehicle.

I work in IT. Pessimism is a feature, not a bug.

 

[zoomer0056]

Edit: Here is NHTSA’s document. Much better to read the orginal vs. getting information second hand from news articles:

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCLRPT-23V085-3451.PDF

Yes sir. It's best to read direct from NHTSA instead of from a news article with biased interpretations.

 

[zoomer0056]

I'm guessing it's bad map data.

I don't think it's map data. The system relies on seeing and interpreting a sign.

 

[zoomer0056]

Perhaps driving laws need to be updated to allow for "wide" turns. Everyone does it.

I don't understand why people do this. It doesn't make sense. They're at a stop getting ready to take a left hand turn. Then, as if the divider to the left has a huge bulbous knob at its end, they vear into the lane to the right before making the left turn. People do this all the time. Its common but unacceptable. Not just change the laws to accommodate this but also the turn lane markings would also need to be widened just at the end ... then each lane to the right would also need to be bulbous at the end .... just kidding

 

[Tam]

Do you even know how long legacy OEMs take to fix recalls ... ?

It's about the tactic of quickly OTA and considering that the issue is done.

Others may drag their feet, but the VIN would reveal that the issue is still there as: "Recall Status: Recall Incomplete."

Not with Tesla. The issue is considered closed once the OTA is done for the following:

The NHTSA Campaign Number: 22V037000 "The "rolling stop" functionality available as part of the Full Self-Driving (Beta) software may allow the vehicle to travel through an all-way stop intersection without first coming to a stop."

The "Recall Status: Recall Incomplete" is no longer there. The book is closed but the issue is not. The issue is now called "NHTSA Campaign Number: 23V085000."

That number will appear as "Recall Status: Recall Incomplete" until there's an OTA and then it will disappear again. Then it will have to reincarnate into another number in order to get fixed perpetually.

 

[comanchepilot]

You guys are arguing over the definition of a recall? That’s hilarious.

There is no such thing as full self driving anything.

Regardless of what buttons you push, levers you pull or dials you spin, you’re driving the car and are responsible for driving the car.

In all 50 states, various territories and foreign nations where the car is sold.

Stop being a fanboi and acknowledge reality.

I didn’t buy EAP or FSD for the very reason neither of them work. I WANT to remain in control of my vehicle.

 

[DarkForest]

I don't think it's map data. The system relies on seeing and interpreting a sign.

The segment of road it screws up on is between when I turn onto the road and it passing the first speed limit sign. Once it sees the sign, it goes with that (consistent with what you said).

Why it thinks the speed limit is 55mph prior to the sign is the mystery, though. The road I’m leaving has a speed limit of 50mph, so it’s not carrying that over.

My only theory is map data. What do you think it could be when there is no speed limit sign?

 

[zoomer0056]

The segment of road it screws up on is between when I turn onto the road and it passing the first speed limit sign. Once it sees the sign, it goes with that (consistent with what you said).

Why it thinks the speed limit is 55mph prior to the sign is the mystery, though. The road I’m leaving has a speed limit of 50mph, so it’s not carrying that over.

My only theory is map data. What do you think it could be when there is no speed limit sign?

I dont know. There's a section of road I travel on frequently with two speed limits. The 1st is 40mph. At the stop light I can see a new speed limit sign down the road saying 55mph. The Tesla speed limit stays at 40mph on this 55mph section until it sees the new speed limit.

 

[Supcom]

The segment of road it screws up on is between when I turn onto the road and it passing the first speed limit sign. Once it sees the sign, it goes with that (consistent with what you said).

Why it thinks the speed limit is 55mph prior to the sign is the mystery, though. The road I’m leaving has a speed limit of 50mph, so it’s not carrying that over.

My only theory is map data. What do you think it could be when there is no speed limit sign?

There seems to be certain default speeds for roads depending on the type and their location. While I've never encountered a 55 mph excess speed default, I have encountered many cases of city streets defaulting to 30 mph before a residential 25 mph sign is seen or rural highways defaulting to 25 mph before a 55 mph sign is encountered.

I don't believe these are map errors. I believe they are just defaults that are being incorrectly applied when the car hasn't seen a sign yet.

 

[ljbad4life]

I don't understand why people do this. It doesn't make sense. They're at a stop getting ready to take a left hand turn. Then, as if the divider to the left has a huge bulbous knob at its end, they vear into the lane to the right before making the left turn. People do this all the time. Its common but unacceptable. Not just change the laws to accommodate this but also the turn lane markings would also need to be widened just at the end ... then each lane to the right would also need to be bulbous at the end .... just kidding

Historically, things do change based on driver behavior. 2 turn lanes were legally dubious before, banning right on red in dense cities. the wide turning maybe a symptom of everyone going to massive suvs and pickup trucks and lack of driver training to operate those large vehicles.

 

[DarkForest]

There seems to be certain default speeds for roads depending on the type and their location. While I've never encountered a 55 mph excess speed default, I have encountered many cases of city streets defaulting to 30 mph before a residential 25 mph sign is seen or rural highways defaulting to 25 mph before a 55 mph sign is encountered.

I don't believe these are map errors. I believe they are just defaults that are being incorrectly applied when the car hasn't seen a sign yet.

Oh, true. Might be bad map data. Might be missing map data.

This would be the only 55 mph default speed I’ve seen, though, and it’s on a two-lane road. Other default speeds I’ve seen for sure are 25 mph and 30 mph.

 

[zoomer0056]

 

[kabin]

Either that or change the name to f**k-up. "The NHTSA has given a f**k-up notice to Tesla. A spokesperson said that Tesla has f**ked up a few things in its software again and needed to fix them."

Yep. Although NHTSA is there to be a team player, recalls aren't meant to coddle those that have messed up and/or taken short cuts. There's no escaping blame here. It isn't the government and it's not semantics.

360k paid customers with many more vehicle passengers and one has to hope this isn't the beginning of a dam break.

 

[kabin]

There is NO core issue of FSD Beta braking to near 0 on a highway. Highway driving is almost always on the AP stack and NOT FSD Beta. Also how can any car brake to near 0 on a highway unless the driver is COMPLETELY incompetent and inattentive?

If you are referring to the California incident then we don't know yet what happened and even if AP was engaged it was NOT FSD Beta. Remember the Texas crash where there was NO driver in the seat so AP must have caused it and even the investigators made incorrect preliminary statements?

EDIT: Just to add all these systems are L2 and YOU ARE the driver. NOT the car.

Last I heard the California bridge crash was confirmed to be FSDb. The same thing could happen on a freeway overpass/underpass and a few other ways we probably haven't considered.

 

[Kevy Baby]

Does this effect cars with Enhanced Autopilot (beta)?

There is no beta of EAP.

I didn’t buy EAP or FSD for the very reason neither of them work.

Correction: they don't work FOR YOU. Obviously there are some people out there for whom FSD works. I have EAP and while I don't use the NOAP part of it, I REALLY appreciate having the lane change capability and the (dumb) summon feature to pull my car out of and into my garage. So, EAP works for me.

 

[₸≡≶⦜⩝ ⩎⦙⊮≡]

My 2018 Model 3 shows EAP with the following as "beta":

Navigate on Autopilot
Auto Lane Change
Summon
Autosteer

 

[Kevy Baby]

My 2018 Model 3 shows EAP with the following as "beta":

Navigate on Autopilot
Auto Lane Change
Summon
Autosteer

That's just Tesla's legal loophole to avoid litigation: everything is considered "Beta." This is different than the FSDb.