Tesla CHAdeMo Update

[hiroshiy]

@dsm363: wrong link for CHAdeMO cars.
CHAdeMO EVs, Chargers and Connectors CHAdeMO Association

They did a very poor job when moved to a new site.

 

[Laumb]

Frank, 6 superchargers is currently under construction In Norway.

 

[dsm363]

@dsm363: wrong link for CHAdeMO cars.
CHAdeMO EVs, Chargers and Connectors CHAdeMO Association

They did a very poor job when moved to a new site.

Thanks. Lot more cars it looks like. For the US though it looks like Leaf is only major player at this point pushing their standard.

 

[jkirkebo]

My best guess is, Tesla is monitoring the European developments to determine who will be the winner: The Tesla station network with swap and Superchargers (NONE build yet) or the CHAdeMO DC network (over HUNDRED build yet). They want to control the whole chain. However, psychology demonstrates that front runners don't understand you oft only can win the race by hooking up with a lagger.

Well, none built yet that is correct. But all 6 of the first wave of SuperChargers in Norway are now under construction. So in about a month we will have 6 operational SCs in Norway, with 3-4 active port each (space and power reserved for 6-10 ports at each location for future expansion).

 

[100thMonkey]

and remarkably, sales are surging. Nissan just sold it's 100,000th Leaf, most have CHAdeMO port. there are several CHAdeMO options within a few miles of my house. I don't think CHAdeMO is all that great, I do believe Tesla's is better, but it's clear, CHAdeMO will be around for a while and there is just no good reason to not have access to it!

Thanks. Lot more cars it looks like. For the US though it looks like Leaf is only major player at this point pushing their standard.

 

[bluetinc]

100thMonkey,

But when they do release it, and the price for it is at $2,500, will you feel that you then have access to it?

It seems like most who post on this thread are expecting this adapter to be just another $100-$500 adapter. I think that when we see the adapter released we will then see 64 pages of complaints on the price of the adapter and talk about how they should have made a cheaper adapter or not bothered at all.

Peter

and remarkably, sales are surging. Nissan just sold it's 100,000th Leaf, most have CHAdeMO port. there are several CHAdeMO options within a few miles of my house. I don't think CHAdeMO is all that great, I do believe Tesla's is better, but it's clear, CHAdeMO will be around for a while and there is just no good reason to not have access to it!

 

[PhilBa]

@bluetinc, do you have specific information on the price or are you guessing? I spoke to a Tesla Marketing Manager about a week ago who told me the chademo adapter would be in the $1500 range. His words were, "It won't be cheap, maybe $1500 or so". I always take anything an employee says (even Elon!) with a healthy dose of skepticism but place a little more of that on non-employees and guesses. lol

 

[bluetinc]

It's the price I ended up at after roughing out the design of one a year ago or so (Connectors, PCB/CCA costs, Assembly, profit, etc.) but not including the $500K-$1M+ in development costs. In the volumes that we would be looking at, finding an inlet side of a CHAdeMo connection is both difficult and very expensive. Going back to the manufacturers for pricing of those was quite a surprise for me after I had just ordered a couple J1772 inlets for sub $100. Then you add in licensing costs etc. etc. (Perhaps Tesla is looking at manufacturing their own inlet side?). It seems like this adapter would be better targeted at the CHAdeMO operators instead, where adding a Tesla S adapter for say 3K-4K would make much more sense since we are only talking about a couple hundred in the US and those operators have already shelled out a lot of money for the chargers.

Peter

@bluetinc, do you have specific information on the price or are you guessing? I spoke to a Tesla Marketing Manager about a week ago who told me the chademo adapter would be in the $1500 range. His words were, "It won't be cheap, maybe $1500 or so". I always take anything an employee says (even Elon!) with a healthy dose of skepticism but place a little more of that on non-employees and guesses. lol

 

[100thMonkey]

that's a good question. I see logic in Tesla comping the cost for a permanent pedistal install at existing CHAdeMO stations, or at least at key intersecting points and terminus's. $650 for the HPC is high enough that folks are pooling funds and putting them in lock boxes around here rather than everyone buying their own. If the CHAdeMO adapter is really expensive (don't know what that number would be), it's possible that Tesla would lose just as much money as if they comped them because the only sales they will get might be a smaller number of group buys. CHAdeMO will not be the long term standard, it's just not user friendly, too glitchy and breaks too easily but it's here now in large enough numbers to be accommodated at least short term. I've been impressed with how generous this crowd has been at sourcing permanent adapter instals... if the CHAdeMO adapter is really expensive it probably won't keep us from getting them in key locations as a group but it will hold back personal purchases. from what I've heard from my contact at the DOT here in WA, they would be open to coordinating efforts to get a CHAdeMO adapter network in places along the west coast green highway.

COME ON TESLA, GIVE US AN OFFICIAL RELEASE ON THIS SUBJECT, THE INFORMATION VACUUM IS EXCRUCIATING!

100thMonkey,

But when they do release it, and the price for it is at $2,500, will you feel that you then have access to it?

It seems like most who post on this thread are expecting this adapter to be just another $100-$500 adapter. I think that when we see the adapter released we will then see 64 pages of complaints on the price of the adapter and talk about how they should have made a cheaper adapter or not bothered at all.

Peter

 

[AmpedRealtor]

100thMonkey,

But when they do release it, and the price for it is at $2,500, will you feel that you then have access to it?

It seems like most who post on this thread are expecting this adapter to be just another $100-$500 adapter. I think that when we see the adapter released we will then see 64 pages of complaints on the price of the adapter and talk about how they should have made a cheaper adapter or not bothered at all.

Peter

I would love someone to tell me why this adapter should cost more than $500. Is it made of gold or something?

If Tesla were named Apple, I would know exactly why there was no CHAdeMO adapter - because they don't want to give credibility to CHAdeMO as a competing DC charging standard. Tesla wants Superchargers to be the standard, hoping to leverage those superchargers to serve other vehicles at some point for a fee. Opening that up to CHAdeMO DC charging devalues the infrastructure that Tesla is building and would like to leverage down the road.

I suspect the slowness of getting a CHAdeMO adapter has less to do with technicals and cost, more to do with Tesla wanting to own as much of the "ecosystem" as possible.

 

[TonyWilliams]

It seems like this adapter would be better targeted at the CHAdeMO operators instead, where adding a Tesla S adapter for say 3K-4K would make much more sense since we are only talking about a couple hundred in the US and those operators have already shelled out a lot of money for the chargers.

Peter

Terrible plan, if so, since virtually all CHAdeMO's were installed with fixed public funds. There's not $3000 or $4000 floating around per charger (there are hundreds of CHAdeMO's in the USA, on track for 300 by year's end) to offer typically free power to folks driving government subsidized $100k luxury cars.

The same argument applies to the folks who suggest you just "throw on a Frankenplug" nozzle on CHAdeMO's. Just getting UL certification on all the various charger models and potential Frankenplug nozzles would cost millions.

- - - Updated - - -

CHAdeMO will not be the long term standard, it's just not user friendly, too glitchy and breaks too easily but it's here now in large enough numbers to be accommodated at least short term.

You think the "standard" is the reason for glitchy chargers? Anything marked "Blink" would fail no matter what standard it was using.

 

[Lloyd]

I would love someone to tell me why this adapter should cost more than $500. Is it made of gold or something?

.

From what I understand, Chademo decides how to charge the battery, and Tesla will not allow that to happen. Any adapter will have to be smart to some degree to intervene between the chademo logic, and what Tesla wants the car to have.

 

[TonyWilliams]

From what I understand, Chademo decides how to charge the battery, and Tesla will not allow that to happen. Any adapter will have to be smart to some degree to intervene between the chademo logic, and what Tesla wants the car to have.

I would like to squash this rumor. On the factory tour last Sunday during Teslive, the tour guide made that same comment, and it seems to be Tesla lore, repeated ad nauseum and never challenged.

No DC charger of any current or future proposed communications protocol "tells the car how much power it will get". The car and the charger communicate as to how much power is available, and how much will be used. Obviously, the actual current draw will be the lower of the two.

Even the proposed Frankenplug does this, and of course, CHAdeMO has been doing this for about 5 years.

 

[markb1]

I would love someone to tell me why this adapter should cost more than $500. Is it made of gold or something?

I can't really answer this, but the UMC costs $595, and the HPWC costs $1200, and those are both glorified extension cords (simply a means of connecting the AC power from your house to the charge port). A CHAdeMo adapter has to be beefier than an HPWC, and it has to translate the signaling between the car and the charger, which the UMC and HPWC don't have to do.

 

[Eberhard]

In EUROPE Mennekes Type 2 is the standard for AC and CHAdeMO for DC. In my Dutch area (150 km circle) there are tens of CHAdeMO DC fastloaders ( 50 - 80 kW) and NO Tesla Superchargers at all. It would be unbelievable if there 1) comes no CHAdeMO adapter or - even better - 2) Tesla Superchargers switch to CHAdeMO. Didn't they learn from the Philips Video2000 marketing case?

My best guess is, Tesla is monitoring the European developments to determine who will be the winner: The Tesla station network with swap and Superchargers (NONE build yet) or the CHAdeMO DC network (over HUNDRED build yet). They want to control the whole chain. However, psychology demonstrates that front runners don't understand you oft only can win the race by hooking up with a lagger.

CHAdeMO is not an european standard. CCS is selected by the EU as standard for DC as an addon to the TYP2 which already has DC charging ability (140A 500V)

 

[PhilBa]

I can't really answer this, but the UMC costs $595, and the HPWC costs $1200, and those are both glorified extension cords (simply a means of connecting the AC power from your house to the charge port). A CHAdeMo adapter has to be beefier than an HPWC, and it has to translate the signaling between the car and the charger, which the UMC and HPWC don't have to do.

Makes sense though translating signals isn't going to be that costly. The chademo adapter will have to fake a chademo compatible vehicle to the charger and fake a Tesla compatible (SAE? SC?) EVSE to the car. I hope they have one of their top power engineers on it. As has been posted before, the connectors and buss bars (or what ever they call them) will probably be the costliest components.

 

[Laumb]

So, this is my look into the crystal ball:

- Tesla (fact) has confirmed, multiple times - last time the Charging Guide for Europe, dated May - that a CHAdeMO adaptor will come to Europe.

- (speculation) Tesla has included all necessery hardware to communicate and trick CHAdeMO chargers In the new Europe-3-phase charger unit.

- (speculation) Due to above European customers will get hold of a direct adapter piece for CHAdeMO that costs $149,-.

- (speculation) This is the reason old US customers wont get CHAdeMO.

- (speculation) US cars will be fitted with a reworked charger including the same features, and an inlet om the car that has two more, tiny communication pins for CHAdeMO, but they will be backwards compatible with old connectors.

- (speculation) retrofit available for $2500 - 3500,- (new charger(s) and inlet).

 

[qwk]

^^^Except DC power doesn't use any "charger" to charge the car. It's a direct path to the battery.

 

[Laumb]

^^^Except DC power doesn't use any "charger" to charge the car. It's a direct path to the battery.

I know that, but the reworked charger could contain all the communication stuff going on the communication bus to tell the CHAdeMO charger what kind og power to feed the battery at a certain time.

I am sure In regular supercharging there is a few key components that tells the supercharger something. The most logical solution for communicating would be through an existing connection: the on board chargers built In communicative device

 

[bluetinc]

Hey AmpedRealtor,

It all depends on exactly how it's designed, but for starters the CHAdeMO inlet is that much in itself, as an example Yazaki connectors and plugs run 500 pounds for receptacles and 1200 for plugs. Then add on the Model S plug along with a cable that will support the 120A of current, and that adds another few hundred dollars (~300+). That's $800+ before adding anything for the computer card that needs to interface the two, or the whole assembly, assembly costs, engineering costs, testing costs, certification costs, or profit.

Personally I think there are a couple of reasons that there is no adapter.

1. CHAdeMO chargers are not that much better than an HPWC. Most CHAdeMO systems are ~2X faster than an HPWC, some barely over 1X. (vs 6x with the upcoming 120KW Superchargers). I know it's hard to remember this while sitting at a charge station that takes 16 hours to charge up while next to it is a CHAdeMO station that would fill you up in 2 hours (I've been there) but that's why I think demanding that 80Amp charge stations rather than the current 30A stations would in the end be more helpful for more people.

2. Creating an adapter is expensive, and a PITA.

3. They would give credibility to a very inferior standard and unfortunately many times credibility will chose a winner over a superior standard. I'll point out here that Tesla's connectors can supply almost 2x the MAXIMUM energy that either CHAdeMO or the SAE plugs can, which are all really limited by their max current as the voltages are set by the battery pack charge level (200A vs 350A+).

Also for those that want a little more detail on how a charge session runs via CHAdeMO, here are my notes (snagged long ago from online sources):

1- Signal to start sent from charger to car
2- CAN bus data sent from car to charger indicating target charge voltage and capacity of pack
3- CAN bus data sent form charger to car indicating max current and voltage available
4- Car verifies compatibility and then sends ok to start charging.
5- Charger confirms start then car closed relay and commences sending voltage and current targets for charger to run.
6- Charger follows the voltage and current commands of the car. the car meanwhile is checking on pack status. If the car wants to stop it sends a zero current signal to the charger. On confirmation of zero current it then removes the ok to start charging.
7- Charger terminates charge cycle.



Peter

I would love someone to tell me why this adapter should cost more than $500. Is it made of gold or something?

If Tesla were named Apple, I would know exactly why there was no CHAdeMO adapter - because they don't want to give credibility to CHAdeMO as a competing DC charging standard. Tesla wants Superchargers to be the standard, hoping to leverage those superchargers to serve other vehicles at some point for a fee. Opening that up to CHAdeMO DC charging devalues the infrastructure that Tesla is building and would like to leverage down the road.

I suspect the slowness of getting a CHAdeMO adapter has less to do with technicals and cost, more to do with Tesla wanting to own as much of the "ecosystem" as possible.