Tesla CHAdeMo Update

[dsm363]

I think you missed my point. Note that you said "few" and I called that out. And then you reply with (paraphrasing) "but you're not supporting more than few / many". You're right. I didn't. That's my point.

I think we can agree on what you said in (1) but we should table (2) for now because it's not getting us anywhere in this or the other threads. And more broadly, (a) I think we can agree on giving Tesla a pass for "some time" while they get Europe, Japan, etc. underway and we see the CHAdeMO results that come out of that and (b) I hope we can agree that we're not going to get a consensus on the "demand" or "value" of CHAdeMO for North America on TMC for at least 6 months.

A dense number of CHAdeMO locations can be counted on two hands. You could make the argument that Tesla has done a better job actually by heavily hitting California where almost 1/3rd the Model Ss live and now Portland to Vancouver. That isn't a knock on the people who who want the adapter, just a statement of fact. Not all Tesla customers live in those areas just as not all Tesla customers live in areas with Superchargers at the moment.

Again, I hope they come out with the adapter. While it might not currently be useful to 'depends on how you define few' Tesla customers, it is very useful to the people who live in areas that have them or drive to cities that have them (because I don't know of any CHAdeMO stations outside I5 and maybe Tennessee that are clustered along major highways between cities).

 

[AmpedRealtor]

BLINK shows 84 DC fast chargers (CHAdeMO) nationwide... and 34 of those (40%) are right here in Phoenix. No, not Washington or Oregon or some island out in the Pacific. The last time I checked, there was no supercharger in Phoenix, although one is planned for this year but nobody seems to know where it's going to be. And even then, I'm sure those 34 CHAdeMO stations throughout the valley provide me with better options than a single supercharger location that has yet to materialize. So please, let's stop with the nonsense that there are no CHAdeMO stations where it matters. There are an estimated 400 Model S vehicles in Arizona, the vast majority of which are probably in the Phoenix area.

 

[dsm363]

BLINK shows 84 DC fast chargers (CHAdeMO) nationwide... and 34 of those (40%) are right here in Phoenix. No, not Washington or Oregon or some island out in the Pacific. The last time I checked, there was no supercharger in Phoenix, although one is planned for this year but nobody seems to know where it's going to be. And even then, I'm sure those 34 CHAdeMO stations throughout the valley provide me with better options than a single supercharger location that has yet to materialize. So please, let's stop with the nonsense that there are no CHAdeMO stations where it matters. There are an estimated 400 Model S vehicles in Arizona, the vast majority of which are probably in the Phoenix area.

Where did I say 'there are no CHAdeMO stations where it matters'? Also, where did I mention 'some island out in the Pacific'? I repeat (yet again) the adapter will be very useful to some people and even more useful if more cities add CHAdeMO stations but let's not pretend either CHAdeMO or Tesla has major highway routes or most major cities blanketed with charge points. The CHAdeMO stations also do little to help with intercity travel if the two cities are farther than 250 miles apart. The CHAdeMO and Supercharger networks actually serve two different purposes anyway. If you drive out of Phoenix 200 miles away, how useful would you find the CHAdeMO stations all the way back in Phoenix to be to you at that point? Superchargers are for intercity travel and CHAdeMO stations are more for cars like the Leaf with very limited range or for the Model S (with the adapter) to top up quickly once you arrive at your destination city.

 

[brianman]

Unless residential CHAdeMO is available in some areas, PlugShare needs to fix their filtering to respect the "only CHAdeMO" filter properly. That said, here's what they show for North America:

The red lines and numbers are from Plugshare's tally when zooming in. I think there were about 6 grey and blue (non-orange) entries on the right-most zoom-in, so perhaps drop that number to 34.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Where did I say 'there are no CHAdeMO stations where it matters'? Also, where did I mention 'some island out in the Pacific'? I repeat (yet again) the adapter will be very useful to some people and even more useful if more cities add CHAdeMO stations but let's not pretend either CHAdeMO or Tesla has major highway routes or most major cities blanketed with charge points. The CHAdeMO stations also do little to help with intercity travel if the two cities are farther than 250 miles apart. The CHAdeMO and Supercharger networks actually serve two different purposes anyway. If you drive out of Phoenix 200 miles away, how useful would you find the CHAdeMO stations all the way back in Phoenix to be to you at that point? Superchargers are for intercity travel and CHAdeMO stations are more for cars like the Leaf with very limited range or for the Model S (with the adapter) to top up quickly once you arrive at your destination city.

No need to get defensive, I was not responding directly to you but addressing prior statements and criticisms by others.

 

[Eberhard]

We don't yet know what sort of compromise has been needed to get Supercharging in there. If it is just a standard type2 connector, then the max Supercharging rate would be significantly less than the US cars (about 50kW). Probably they've enhanced the standard connector in some way, but it may still fall short of what the US connector can do.

Standard Typ2 allows 70kW DC (140A 500V) bur with the modified enhanced pins it may go up to 120kW like the US Connector.
3-phase charging in the US would be nice for those, having the 120V/208V 3-phase grid.

 

[EVNow]

The way Tesla would look at it is how many sales they would lose if they didn't offer the adapter. If that amount is low then they don't need to spend money on it. The amount of QC is irrelevant because it depends on if potential customers think they need to use it (if they have no experience with a EV previously they probably won't).

That is a poor way to make decisions - and probably how bean counting faceless wall street corporations work. I hope Tesla doe sbetter - it should be about delighting the customers (taking into consideration effect on the bottomline).

 

[arg]

Standard Typ2 allows 70kW DC (140A 500V) bur with the modified enhanced pins it may go up to 120kW like the US Connector.

That 70kW is a theoretical figure for a car that charges continuously at 500V.

In the case of the Model S, almost all charging occurs below 400V (=>56kW if limited to 140A). Based on this graph, the taper dips below 140A at about 380V - so a peak charging power of 53kW, and most of it lower than that (starting at 360V ->50kW). Admitedly things will be slightly better with the new taper rate announced recently, but never more than 56kW.

So they would have had to more than double the current rating of the pins to get all the way up to 120kW.

 

[jerry33]

Again, I hope they come out with the adapter. While it might not currently be useful to 'depends on how you define few' Tesla customers, it is very useful to the people who live in areas that have them or drive to cities that have them (because I don't know of any CHAdeMO stations outside I5 and maybe Tennessee that are clustered along major highways between cities).

You hit the nail on the head with this one. In most places CHAdeMO are in the cities. High speed chargers are mainly needed between cities where they facilitate travel. Having 20 (or whatever) in Dallas doesn't do a Tesla owner a lick of good.

 

[dirkhh]

You hit the nail on the head with this one. In most places CHAdeMO are in the cities. High speed chargers are mainly needed between cities where they facilitate travel. Having 20 (or whatever) in Dallas doesn't do a Tesla owner a lick of good.

That's an interesting statement. There are two ways to think about chargers and road trips:
1) I need a network of Superchargers along the Interstates so I can get from A to B
2) Once I'm in B I likely want to drive around and need to be able to charge there. This can be done either by having every hotel add 14-50's - or by having enough Fast DC chargers within cities so that you can charge while shopping at a mall. And since chargers within cities are also extremely useful to the people with the much shorter range non-Tesla EVs, it makes sense for the chargers in cities to use a broader standard. CHAdeMO is one possible way to do that and it appears to be making inroads. We'll see what happens long term, but for now a CHAdeMO adapter would indeed be a very valuable addition.

 

[jerry33]

That's an interesting statement. There are two ways to think about chargers and road trips:
1) I need a network of Superchargers along the Interstates so I can get from A to B
2) Once I'm in B I likely want to drive around and need to be able to charge there. This can be done either by having every hotel add 14-50's - or by having enough Fast DC chargers within cities so that you can charge while shopping at a mall. And since chargers within cities are also extremely useful to the people with the much shorter range non-Tesla EVs, it makes sense for the chargers in cities to use a broader standard. CHAdeMO is one possible way to do that and it appears to be making inroads. We'll see what happens long term, but for now a CHAdeMO adapter would indeed be a very valuable addition.

1. I avoid interstates whenever possible. I want chargers along the more interesting routes and leave the interstates to the truckers and RVs.

2. My assumption is that when I arrive at the end of a day's drive, I'll have dinner and go to the B&B, so the charger needs to be where I'm staying. Pretty much any kind of a 240V plug/EVSE will be fine for that. If CHAdeMO becomes popular for B&Bs, then I'd want an adapter. Otherwise, I have Blink and Charge Point cards that I've never used.

 

[dsm363]

That's an interesting statement. There are two ways to think about chargers and road trips:
1) I need a network of Superchargers along the Interstates so I can get from A to B
2) Once I'm in B I likely want to drive around and need to be able to charge there. This can be done either by having every hotel add 14-50's - or by having enough Fast DC chargers within cities so that you can charge while shopping at a mall. And since chargers within cities are also extremely useful to the people with the much shorter range non-Tesla EVs, it makes sense for the chargers in cities to use a broader standard. CHAdeMO is one possible way to do that and it appears to be making inroads. We'll see what happens long term, but for now a CHAdeMO adapter would indeed be a very valuable addition.

I think this is an excellent summary. Both intercity and something faster than 30A level II chargers in cities are needed. I'm not sure if CHAdeMO will win out in the end or extend beyond Nissan but giving people the option of buying the adapter would settle that issue until either CHAdeMO or the Frankenplug (or both) reached mass rollout in the US.

 

[stopcrazypp]

So Tesla provides an adapter for every other kind of charging except CHAdeMO

You are saying this like there's an equivalence with the other charging options (J1772 and UMC adapters), but there's not. The CHAdeMO adapter will be the most complex one. And Tesla doesn't have a SAE DC option yet either, nor some fairly common NEMA sockets (the one raised recently was TT-30, which should be easy for Tesla to make actually). If it was as easy to make as the others, Tesla would have it by now.

That is a poor way to make decisions - and probably how bean counting faceless wall street corporations work. I hope Tesla doe sbetter - it should be about delighting the customers (taking into consideration effect on the bottomline).

I'm just thinking that way because superchargers are part of marketing. Battery swapping is similar (few people will probably use it but it has great marketing value). I'm not sure if a CHAdeMO adapter will have anywhere near the same marketing value. The people I have seen complaining either have/had a Leaf or they already have a Model S and have experienced having to charge at a J1772 when a CHAdeMO is available. Of course only Tesla knows the true demand.

And Tesla has to prioritize their engineering resources too (which is now clearly focused on the the European Model S and probably the RHD version next), so it's not simply bean counting. Sales generating items obviously are number one priority. There's also other bugs/issues with the car that are probably a higher customer experience priority than a CHAdeMO adapter.

But all this argument is moot assuming my original assumption is correct (that the Japanese and US Model S shares the same port). There will definitely be one made for Japan as CHAdeMO is the "official" standard there (it's not in the US) and there's no real plans for superchargers there.

 

[rlang59]

I think it is going to be funny when the complaints change from Tesla not having an adapter to Tesla is charging too much for the adapter. :biggrin:

 

[Skotty]

Unfortunately, I think we have to give it time. I could complain that Tesla should be building superchargers in my area first (instead of being towards the end of roll out), especially considering that folks in areas like the coasts already have plenty of other charging options including CHAdeMO (for Leafs) and tons of J1772. I have to make a weekly trip for business that is about 260 miles round trip with no chargers in route -- not even a single J1772. Who's going to meet my needs? Well, Tesla is, but I have to wait for it; probably until late 2014. It's almost the same thing with Tesla offering a CHAdeMO adapter. Yeah, it would be useful. It's not currently available. Just give it some time, and I'm betting Tesla will make one.

The big difference is Tesla hasn't made a formal statement about whether or not they will offer a CHAdeMO adapter in the US. They need to just come out and officially say they will. Until they do, those who want it don't know if they will EVER get it. I think that's the real problem here. It's the same reason I don't give a rats behind about CHAdeMO. They are no where near my area, and without anyone making any commitments to build them, I just assume there will never be any.

 

[gregincal]

That's an interesting statement. There are two ways to think about chargers and road trips:
1) I need a network of Superchargers along the Interstates so I can get from A to B
2) Once I'm in B I likely want to drive around and need to be able to charge there. This can be done either by having every hotel add 14-50's - or by having enough Fast DC chargers within cities so that you can charge while shopping at a mall. And since chargers within cities are also extremely useful to the people with the much shorter range non-Tesla EVs, it makes sense for the chargers in cities to use a broader standard. CHAdeMO is one possible way to do that and it appears to be making inroads. We'll see what happens long term, but for now a CHAdeMO adapter would indeed be a very valuable addition.

You know I never understand this "drive around" argument. Maybe I'm different, but when I'm visiting some place I don't drive a hundred miles a day, I do that when I'm getting there. When I'm there I might drive a couple dozen miles, but can visit a place for a while without needed to charge at all. I've done weekends away where I don't even bother to charge until I get home. And if a need some level of charging I'd far prefer it to be at my hotel rather than having to spend any time some place charging. The real place for non Tesla level 3 is secondary highways that won't get Superchargers. PAC northwest has that, but nowhere else.

 

[rdrcrmatt]

Unfortunately, I think we have to give it time. I could complain that Tesla should be building superchargers in my area first (instead of being towards the end of roll out), especially considering that folks in areas like the coasts already have plenty of other charging options including CHAdeMO (for Leafs) and tons of J1772. I have to make a weekly trip for business that is about 260 miles round trip with no chargers in route -- not even a single J1772. Who's going to meet my needs? Well, Tesla is, but I have to wait for it; probably until late 2014. It's almost the same thing with Tesla offering a CHAdeMO adapter. Yeah, it would be useful. It's not currently available. Just give it some time, and I'm betting Tesla will make one.

The big difference is Tesla hasn't made a formal statement about whether or not they will offer a CHAdeMO adapter in the US. They need to just come out and officially say they will. Until they do, those who want it don't know if they will EVER get it. I think that's the real problem here. It's the same reason I don't give a rats behind about CHAdeMO. They are no where near my area, and without anyone making any commitments to build them, I just assume there will never be any.

I'm just the opposite.. I commute 200 miles daily so I'm within range but there are days I have to make side trips that will put me over.

There are a couple chademo chargers around my office that I would really like to use if at all possible.

It is unfortunate that Tesla won't publish specs for the supercharging interface in order to facilitate 3rd party chademo adapters.

 

[bollar]

You know I never understand this "drive around" argument. Maybe I'm different, but when I'm visiting some place I don't drive a hundred miles a day, I do that when I'm getting there. When I'm there I might drive a couple dozen miles, but can visit a place for a while without needed to charge at all. I've done weekends away where I don't even bother to charge until I get home. And if a need some level of charging I'd far prefer it to be at my hotel rather than having to spend any time some place charging. The real place for non Tesla level 3 is secondary highways that won't get Superchargers. PAC northwest has that, but nowhere else.

Maybe it's just the long distances involved here in the middle of the country, or maybe it's just business travel, but I regularly drive 150+ miles a day when I visit Houston. Overnight charging at a hotel is good, but being able to do a Chademo charge over lunch would be great.

In any event, until there's an SC between DFW and Houston, it's a theoretical discussion -- that drive is only for the most die-hard Tesla fan -- you'd arrive with a discharged battery and would have to do an overnight charge before you could make any of the client visits.

 

[100thMonkey]

1. I avoid interstates whenever possible. I want chargers along the more interesting routes and leave the interstates to the truckers and RVs.

2. My assumption is that when I arrive at the end of a day's drive, I'll have dinner and go to the B&B, so the charger needs to be where I'm staying. Pretty much any kind of a 240V plug/EVSE will be fine for that. If CHAdeMO becomes popular for B&Bs, then I'd want an adapter. Otherwise, I have Blink and Charge Point cards that I've never used.

I don't think most people can say they are an interstate driver vs a non-interstate driver or whether they only need slowish destination charging or fast on the go charging. If I were to describe our trips this summer in that manner I'd have to say we morph from one type to another. We tend to do the bulk of our driving for long distance on the freeway then shift to side roads as needed, sometimes ending up in the sticks for camping, other times ending up in the middle of a large city or small town, staying with friends sometimes, trying to home adapt, needing every slowish adapter possible because so far I've run into a dizzying array of plugs beyond what Tesla offers, sometimes a plug is dead or not grounded properly or has too high a voltage drop, other times we are at a hotel with only CHAdeMO's and a Roadster HPC other times it's the down to extension cords.

Tesla should just aim to create virtually every adapter possible because Murphy's law shows that it's always the one you don't have that's the limiting factor. In area's Tesla does not plan to put superchargers, adapters like CHAdeMO should be placed by Tesla at key intersections in lock boxes or on a permanent pedestal next to existing CHAdeMO so owners don't have to purchase them, if they are going to be expensive. Unfortunately it's the occasional random bad experience that gets emphasized in one's memory... or maybe I should say my wife's memory. Tesla needs to keep an eye on the rare and random as well as the common experience, if they truly want to dazzle, IMHO.

 

[jomo25]

Having the ability to fast charge in a destination city is still valuable. If I drive using SC or FC from Phx to SD, I may reach there with a low charge state since they are planned to be spaced accordingly to connect cities. If I time it so I arrive at night and go to bed, sure L2 is fine (assuming the hotel has L2). But if I leave early in the AM, and arrive at 2pm, I'll still want to drive around and do stuff. And I don't want to have to wait 4-5 hours to charge up at L2 station before doing so.

I agree SC and FC are much more useful on interstates for intercity travel. But that doesn't mean having them in the cities is useless. It's why I'm fine with Tesla focusing their SC rollouts to connect cities, but would love to have the Chademo capability to charge up in the cities I'm visiting.