Tesla Model 3 Battery Warranty Includes 70% Retention Guarantee

[Runt8]

Well as the capacity guarantee for the S and X is “Good luck! Kisses, Elon” and the guarantee for the original Leaf had to come via class action lawsuit guaranteeing 64% retention at five years or 60k miles and that the only other 200+ mile car in this segment (Bolt) has a 60% capacity guarantee I’d say this coverage is pretty solid.

I agree, compared to the other two main EV competitors it's solid coverage. But this is Tesla - part of the reason I'm spending $55,000 is because of how great it retains its value compared to other vehicles. From the anecdotal evidence I've seen Tesla has been very good about replacing defective parts with no hassle, and I assumed this would apply to the battery as well.

It's definitely possible that I have unrealistic ideas about Tesla replacing defective batteries (or maybe it just hasn't been much of a problem). All I'm saying is I hope this 70% number (which I find unrealistically low based on the degradation rates on the S and X) isn't used as a hard line in the sand when it comes to replacing defective batteries.

 

[mtndrew1]

BMW i3, Kia Soul, VW e-golf, Mercedes B2502 - 8 years, 100k miles - 70% capacity
Nissan Leaf - - 8 years, 100k miles - 75% capacity
Chevy Bolt - 8 years, 100k miles - 60% capacity

Fiat, Ford, Mitsubishi - None

Excellent summary!

Do you have a reference to the 30 kWh Leaf capacity warranty? I was under the impression it was still “four bars” lost on the capacity meter within eight years or 100k which correlated with ~64% retention.

 

[mtndrew1]

I agree, compared to the other two main EV competitors it's solid coverage. But this is Tesla - part of the reason I'm spending $55,000 is because of how great it retains its value compared to other vehicles. From the anecdotal evidence I've seen Tesla has been very good about replacing defective parts with no hassle, and I assumed this would apply to the battery as well.

It's definitely possible that I have unrealistic ideas about Tesla replacing defective batteries (or maybe it just hasn't been much of a problem). All I'm saying is I hope this 70% number (which I find unrealistically low based on the degradation rates on the S and X) isn't used as a hard line in the sand when it comes to replacing defective batteries.

I would assume that is indeed a hard line for degradation replacement. They needed to keep the margins up on this thing and strict warranty guidelines are part of that.

That said, just like all the other cars listed, there are ways to mitigate degradation and a scale of ideal conditions. Park the car at 100% charge in Phoenix in the summer exposed to the sun and leave on a three week vacation and that’s going to accelerate degradation. Park in covered areas in moderate climates and use an 80%-20% charge window aside from long trips and you’ll probably see extremely low levels of degradation.

The warranty must cover all scenarios no matter how nasty the customer is to the battery.

 

[Electroman]

BMW i3, Kia Soul, VW e-golf, Mercedes B2502 - 8 years, 100k miles - 70% capacity
Nissan Leaf - - 8 years, 100k miles - 75% capacity
Chevy Bolt - 8 years, 100k miles - 60% capacity

Fiat, Ford, Mitsubishi - None

Interesting. How is that the one that does not have any battery thermal protection is the one that has the best capacity warranty? Nissan Leaf.

Strange.

 

[dhanson865]

BMW i3, Kia Soul, VW e-golf, Mercedes B2502 - 8 years, 100k miles - 70% capacity
Chevy Bolt - 8 years, 100k miles - 60% capacity

Fiat, Ford, Mitsubishi - None

Nissan Leaf - - 8 years, 100k miles - 66.25% capacity.

The thing is Nissan does 8 bars out of 12 and people assume that is 75% but they do the bars like this:

capacity bars
100% to 85% = 12 bars (15% or 2.4 times a "normal" bar)
85% to 78.75% = 11 bars (6.25%)
78.75% to 72.5% = 10 bars (6.25%)
72.5% to 66.25% = 9 bars (6.25%)
66.25% to 60% = 8 bars (6.25%)
60% to 53.75% = 7 bars (6.25%)
53.75% to 47.5% = 6 bars (6.25%)
47.5% to 41.25% = 5 bars (6.25%)
41.25% to 35% = 4 bars (6.25%)
35% to 28.75% = 3 bars (6.25%)
28.75% to 22.5% = 2 bars (6.25%)
22.5% to 16.25% = 1 bar (6.25%)
16.25% to 0% = 0 bars (16.25% or 2.6 times a "normal" bar).

 

[dhanson865]

Interesting. How is that the one that does not have any battery thermal protection is the one that has the best capacity warranty? Nissan Leaf.

Strange.

Because they don't have the best, see above, the correct number is 66.25%.

Corrected (assuming the rest of the list is correct):

Tesla (model 3 long range) 125k miles - 70% capacity
Tesla (model 3 short range), BMW i3, Kia Soul, VW e-golf, Mercedes B2502 - 8 years, 100k miles - 70% capacity
Nissan Leaf - - 8 years, 100k miles - 66.25% capacity
Chevy Bolt - 8 years, 100k miles - 60% capacity

Fiat, Ford, Mitsubishi - None

 

[internalaudit]

Not sure about that.
For the first, if you look at Model S and Model X they are not close to 70% after a few years and 100 000 miles wish means that charging to 100% every day would maybe only make the degradation go faster but not reach 70% in 8 years. What do you want, a battery with 75% or 90% after 8 years or 100 000 miles?
For the second, it says in the pdf file that the warranty will not cover if you ignoring warnings from the car, can the warning about not charge to 100% often count as this? If so, the warranty won't cover degradation.

Battery chemistry is not going to be the same, or will it?

So 365 days x eight years x 100 miles = 292,000 miles covered so your 100,000 mile example doesn't cover the extreme cases like for Uber drivers.

If we are not allowed to charge to 100%,then 95% it is.

I would rather have 75% at the end of eight years (even better it it drops below 70%) if by charging close to 100% once or twice a week and cover pretty much all my driving needs and save time charging at home instead of paying more at public charging stations and spending time there waiting in line. These cars are not our masters. We are their masters.

By the end of eight years, solid state batteries may be the norm and it could be a lot cheaper.

I think quick charging kills the battery more than topping it up completely since there's some buffer in the battery pack anyway.

 

[gregincal]

Battery chemistry is not going to be the same, or will it?

So 365 days x eight years x 100 miles = 292,000 miles covered so your 100,000 mile example doesn't cover the extreme cases like for Uber drivers.

If we are not allowed to charge to 100%,then 95% it is.

I would rather have 75% at the end of eight years (even better it it drops below 70%) if by charging close to 100% once or twice a week and cover pretty much all my driving needs and save time charging at home instead of paying more at public charging stations and spending time there waiting in line. These cars are not our masters. We are their master.

By the end of eight years, solid state batteries may be the norm and it could be a lot cheaper.

I think quick charging kills the battery more than topping it up completely since there's some buffer in the battery pack anyway.

You can charge close to 100% once or twice a week if you need the charge. The thing that kills the battery is letting it sit at 100% without using it. So when the car is just sitting unused it should never be set more than 90%. Before a long trip you charge to 100%.

 

[vigge50]

Battery chemistry is not going to be the same, or will it?

So 365 days x eight years x 100 miles = 292,000 miles covered so your 100,000 mile example doesn't cover the extreme cases like for Uber drivers.

If we are not allowed to charge to 100%,then 95% it is.

I would rather have 75% at the end of eight years (even better it it drops below 70%) if by charging close to 100% once or twice a week and cover pretty much all my driving needs and save time charging at home instead of paying more at public charging stations and spending time there waiting in line. These cars are not our masters. We are their masters.

By the end of eight years, solid state batteries may be the norm and it could be a lot cheaper.

I think quick charging kills the battery more than topping it up completely since there's some buffer in the battery pack anyway.

There is a buffer at the button and on a top if you have the normal settings to charge up to 90%, if you charge to 100% it will be 100% full. And just as @gregincal says, there is not a problem to charge up to 100%, the problem is to let the battery be on 100% for a long time, Tesla recommend you to drive within 30 minutes if you charge up to 100%.

 

[SageBrush]

Excellent summary!

Do you have a reference to the 30 kWh Leaf capacity warranty? I was under the impression it was still “four bars” lost on the capacity meter within eight years or 100k which correlated with ~64% retention.

It is 4 bars, but it is currently unknown what that translates into in terms of capacity lost since no one has reached that point yet (coming up in 2018 judging by the losses so far.) Certainly the first couple of bars have changed their capacity meanings compared to the 24 kWh battery models. One guy on the MNL forum is down to 65% capacity with two bars lost, although I think this is atypical.

Nissan referenced " about 70% battery capacity" as a threshold for warranty replacement in the 2012 (I think) user manual but has since erased all mention of a specific number.

 

[apacheguy]

This is great. However, I’m not aware of a single 85 kWh build that would qualify for this if the warranty had been in place since 2012. Barring a dead module (in which there are other symptoms besides capacity loss), I predict this clause will never be used.

 

[SageBrush]

This is great. However, I’m not aware of a single 85 kWh build that would qualify for this if the warranty had been in place since 2012. Barring a dead module (in which there are other symptoms besides capacity loss), I predict this clause will never be used.

I'm hopeful this is the case for the new packs too, but the anecdotal reports of 2C charging rates at Superchargers has me wondering if a subset of owners who frequent Superchargers might experience accelerated degradation. Or maybe they will just be throttled all the sooner ;-)

 

[SageBrush]

Nissan Leaf - - 8 years, 100k miles - 66.25% capacity.

For the more recent models -- from 2016 IIRC
Earlier models were 5y/60k miles

The percentage table is applicable to the 24 kWh models; it is unknown at present if it also pertains to the 30 kWh models. Nissan judges warranty claims by bars lost.

 

[mtndrew1]

Because they don't have the best, see above, the correct number is 66.25%.

Corrected (assuming the rest of the list is correct):

Tesla (model 3 long range) 125k miles - 70% capacity
Tesla (model 3 short range), BMW i3, Kia Soul, VW e-golf, Mercedes B2502 - 8 years, 100k miles - 70% capacity
Nissan Leaf - - 8 years, 100k miles - 66.25% capacity
Chevy Bolt - 8 years, 100k miles - 60% capacity

Fiat, Ford, Mitsubishi - None

Minor correction, Kia has a ten year, 100,000 mile capacity warranty on the Soul EV to 70% SOH, at least through the 2017 model year.

 

[apacheguy]

I'm hopeful this is the case for the new packs too, but the anecdotal reports of 2C charging rates at Superchargers has me wondering if a subset of owners who frequent Superchargers might experience accelerated degradation. Or maybe they will just be throttled all the sooner ;-)

FWIW, @wk057 has indicated that the Model 3 cells are likely similar to those found in the 100, which has not had an reports of ill effects.

 

[internalaudit]

You can charge close to 100% once or twice a week if you need the charge. The thing that kills the battery is letting it sit at 100% without using it. So when the car is just sitting unused it should never be set more than 90%. Before a long trip you charge to 100%.

There is a buffer at the button and on a top if you have the normal settings to charge up to 90%, if you charge to 100% it will be 100% full. And just as @gregincal says, there is not a problem to charge up to 100%, the problem is to let the battery be on 100% for a long time, Tesla recommend you to drive within 30 minutes if you charge up to 100%.

Thanks guys. Maybe I can opt for the SR version + AWD so I don't overspend on the TM3.

 

[dhanson865]

Minor correction, Kia has a ten year, 100,000 mile capacity warranty on the Soul EV to 70% SOH, at least through the 2017 model year.

OK so change it to:

Tesla (model 3 long range) 8 years, 125k miles - 70% capacity
Kia Soul EV 27 kWh - 10 years, 100k miles - 70% capacity
Tesla (model 3 short range), BMW i3, VW e-golf, Mercedes B2502 - 8 years, 100k miles - 70% capacity
Nissan Leaf 30 kWh - 8 years, 100k miles - 66.25% capacity
Chevy Bolt 60 kWh - 8 years, 100k miles - 60% capacity
Nissan Leaf 24 kWh - 5 years, 60k miles - 66.25% capacity (shown for comparison purposes, no longer sold)
Fiat, Ford, Mitsubishi - None

I'd still argue the Nissan Leaf is worse than the Chevy Bolt as it will degrade outside of warranty faster than anything else on the list (because Nissan doesn't cool the pack actively and the rest do). It wouldn't hurt Chevy to move theirs up to 70% to join the middle of the pack.

Kia Soul EV is impressive with 10 years, but with only 100,000 miles included you'd have to average less than 10,000 miles a year to care about the extra years.

My 2012 Leaf has almost 70,000 miles on it in 5 years so as far as I'm concerned any EV with more than 50 miles range is going to see more than 10,000 miles a year on average. Assuming it isn't wrecked, I expect I or the Leafs 3rd owner to hit 100,000 miles before the 8 year mark. Notice the original Leaf only got 12,000 miles a year after the lawsuit forced a capacity warranty. My leafs capacity guarantee expired officially in Oct 2016 based on months and around June 2017 based on miles.

 

[SageBrush]

OK so change it to:
Nissan Leaf 30 kWh - 8 years, 100k miles - 66.25% capacity

This is a guess, based on 24 kWh packs. All Nissan says is "4 bars."

 

[mtndrew1]

This is a guess, based on 24 kWh packs. All Nissan says is "4 bars."

Yeah but 66.25 is as close as can reasonably be extrapolated, in my opinion. It’s an inherently dopey unit of measurement.

 

[SageBrush]

Yeah but 66.25 is as close as can reasonably be extrapolated, in my opinion.

Except that we know that bar #1 and bar #2 do not follow the 24 kWh model recipe, so there is little basis to presume that the 4rth bar will be the same as the 24 kWh model.