Tesla sales rep said MY with 4680 will NOT have longer range

[SageBrush]

you could wait a long time, and by definition when you CAN get a 4680-based

... you will have a Tesla with a 4680 battery.

I don't decide for others if that is worth waiting for, but just because something *else* will be available in the future does not cancel out the 4680 battery.

 

[ucmndd]

Improved heat removal can only be a good thing for longevity.

Is it certain that a bigger cell with more mass concentrated farther away from the coolant loops will actually result in better thermal management?

I think that remains to be seen.

 

[CaliX]

Well I guess there will be more info April 7th at Giga Day in Texas.

 

[SageBrush]

Is it certain that a bigger cell with more mass concentrated farther away from the coolant loops will actually result in better thermal management?

You caught me. I should have written that the 4680 cells have less internal resistance, and that can only be good for longevity.

 

[ZenRockGarden]

Is it certain that a bigger cell with more mass concentrated farther away from the coolant loops will actually result in better thermal management?

I think that remains to be seen.

My understanding is that the "tabless" design of the cells results in much shorter electrical paths within the battery itself, leading to lower overall thermal losses and as a side effect, less heat. You're right that the surface area for cooling is actually greater on the 2170 (or 19650 for that matter)

 

[jama999]

I just got notified that my new MY-P VIN has been assigned. Sales rep told me that my car has the new Ryzen chip plus all the other new stuff except for the 4680 battery. I live in SoCal so the car is coming out of Fremont. He proceeded to say that the 4680 battery will NOT offer longer range for my MY-P because that would simply "invalidate" all the existing MYs. It makes no sense for Tesla to do so. He explained that 4680 simply allows Tesla to be more efficient in manufacturing the batteries. They would just put FEWER batteries in the car to achieve similar range as before.

I'm currently stuck in deciding if I should postpone my delivery in hopes to get the 4680 battery. But if there's no benefit, then I don't need to wait.

While I understand the business decision to allow room to grow and potentially offer even longer range at a higher price point, can anyone confirm if this is in fact true?

Maybe this is obvious, but I agree with the notion that the 4680 pack will probably NOT substantially add to range. Tesla will take additional profits and recognize weight savings from being able to put in a smaller pack for the same level of energy density. They have also hinted that they will use the weight savings to add extras like air suspension, a luggage cover, revised seats (cooled maybe) etc. I feel like Tesla really needs to do these things, as they are still a small automaker compared to the big boys and anything they can add to stave off the likes of Ford, GM, Xpeng, etc is going to be needed to keep their #1 position in the world of EVs. As others said here, most of the advantages of the Austin cars is going to be in manufacturing simplicity and lean advantages to enable Tesla to make cars faster and of higher quality fit and finish. The outward appearance and actual performance of the cars, IMHO, will not change much if at all.

The other thing here is that - at least in my experience - my Model Y Performance and several friends' Model 3 Y S, etc, have NEVER been able to reach the full range stated by the EPA. For example, 303 is my stated range but when I brought my car home brand new it only ever was able to charge to about ~280 miles. Yes, some of this is just standard BMS math/trickery, but now after 7K miles and very conservative charging, my Model Y can only charge to 265 miles at 100%. It's not my imagination either - the BMS is reporting correctly from what I can tell. So, *maybe it's possible* that the 4680s having the advantages they do will make these cars actually go the range they have always been stated to go, not more. Plus, then they might be in a position to UNDER state the range which is never a bad thing for ongoing customer satisfaction.

My 2c,
J

 

[valkeriefire]

Maybe this is obvious, but I agree with the notion that the 4680 pack will probably NOT substantially add to range. Tesla will take additional profits and recognize weight savings from being able to put in a smaller pack for the same level of energy density. They have also hinted that they will use the weight savings to add extras like air suspension, a luggage cover, revised seats (cooled maybe) etc. I feel like Tesla really needs to do these things, as they are still a small automaker compared to the big boys and anything they can add to stave off the likes of Ford, GM, Xpeng, etc is going to be needed to keep their #1 position in the world of EVs. As others said here, most of the advantages of the Austin cars is going to be in manufacturing simplicity and lean advantages to enable Tesla to make cars faster and of higher quality fit and finish. The outward appearance and actual performance of the cars, IMHO, will not change much if at all.

The other thing here is that - at least in my experience - my Model Y Performance and several friends' Model 3 Y S, etc, have NEVER been able to reach the full range stated by the EPA. For example, 303 is my stated range but when I brought my car home brand new it only ever was able to charge to about ~280 miles. Yes, some of this is just standard BMS math/trickery, but now after 7K miles and very conservative charging, my Model Y can only charge to 265 miles at 100%. It's not my imagination either - the BMS is reporting correctly from what I can tell. So, *maybe it's possible* that the 4680s having the advantages they do will make these cars actually go the range they have always been stated to go, not more. Plus, then they might be in a position to UNDER state the range which is never a bad thing for ongoing customer satisfaction.

My 2c,
J

Is your driving on the “faster” side? It normal to loose 5-10% in the first year but you’re reporting slightly over that. The car computes range based on its average w/mile. If you’re prone to enjoying acceleration, that will reduce your range projection. But someone else could theoretically get more range in the same vehicle once it recalibrates.

Just a thought.

Totally agree that Teslas smartest play is keep 4680 range as close to the 2170 as possible (they could even software limit it). Intel did this for years with their cpus. (Small performance bumps on i7-2600k to 7700k, until AMD finally woke up). As long as Tesla has the longest range vehicles on the market, and all those cars sell consistently (all of which is true), they can wait for Ford and everyone else to catch up, and then just throw more 4680 cells into the pack and still stay number 1. This strategy will work until someone develops a battery better than the 4680. Not that we wouldn’t love more range. We could all be wrong though. Tesla has been full of surprises historically.

 

[Destiny1701]

I’d like to see the MYP start to hit 325 miles and the LR around 350. That would make for some future proofing here and also make winter driving range a bit better overall.

We’re talking a 6-7% increase here which I know is not likely for some time as long as demand for the Y remains robust.

Not sure the 4680 will yield this sort of range increase but perhaps with lower weight and structural pack, we may see half of it.
Who knows. Purely speculation here.

 

[Msicario]

Maybe this is obvious, but I agree with the notion that the 4680 pack will probably NOT substantially add to range. Tesla will take additional profits and recognize weight savings from being able to put in a smaller pack for the same level of energy density. They have also hinted that they will use the weight savings to add extras like air suspension, a luggage cover, revised seats (cooled maybe) etc. I feel like Tesla really needs to do these things, as they are still a small automaker compared to the big boys and anything they can add to stave off the likes of Ford, GM, Xpeng, etc is going to be needed to keep their #1 position in the world of EVs. As others said here, most of the advantages of the Austin cars is going to be in manufacturing simplicity and lean advantages to enable Tesla to make cars faster and of higher quality fit and finish. The outward appearance and actual performance of the cars, IMHO, will not change much if at all.

The other thing here is that - at least in my experience - my Model Y Performance and several friends' Model 3 Y S, etc, have NEVER been able to reach the full range stated by the EPA. For example, 303 is my stated range but when I brought my car home brand new it only ever was able to charge to about ~280 miles. Yes, some of this is just standard BMS math/trickery, but now after 7K miles and very conservative charging, my Model Y can only charge to 265 miles at 100%. It's not my imagination either - the BMS is reporting correctly from what I can tell. So, *maybe it's possible* that the 4680s having the advantages they do will make these cars actually go the range they have always been stated to go, not more. Plus, then they might be in a position to UNDER state the range which is never a bad thing for ongoing customer satisfaction.

My 2c,
J

Yikes that’s crazy to have that big of a drop in range after only 7K miles
And even worse that no Federal agency holds them responsible for the deception.
It’s all about profit money for the big corporations.
Once you buy, customer service changes dramatically

 

[Stumpie]

I had assumed the expected or proposed range increase would be driven a good bit by the reduced weight with the one piece front end and structural battery pack, vs any new chemistry or energy denseness of the 4680s vs 2170s. I have read the neighborhood of 400 less lbs, but I guess thats just speculation. The concept of Tesla removing batteries seems strangely anti Tesla, at least to me.

 

[jama999]

Is your driving on the “faster” side? It normal to loose 5-10% in the first year but you’re reporting slightly over that. The car computes range based on its average w/mile. If you’re prone to enjoying acceleration, that will reduce your range projection. But someone else could theoretically get more range in the same vehicle once it recalibrates.

Not really - the Model Y is my DD/local car and so it's almost always in the Austin area, in traffic. I try to stay out of the throttle unless I need it. When I need to go longer distances I generally use my Range Rover sport. My economy is actually really good even for a Model Y Performance - in the 250-260 range on a regular basis. I also dont really supercharge and I keep my battery no lower than 30% and no more than 80% on a daily basis. I even went to the effort to charge it when it's warmer outside and I only use 20a of my charger's 48a. So, who knows; I am guessing this is just normal battery degradation.

 

[SageBrush]

I had assumed the expected or proposed range increase would be driven a good bit by the reduced weight

The EPA range test is an almost even mixture of the low-ish speed highway test and the city test. Weight reduction will improve the result but not by much since the rolling friction is m*g*ƒ and the city driving penalty is markedly mitigated by regenerative braking.

m*g*ƒ for a 400 lb weight reduction is in the neighborhood of 160*9.8*0.009 Newtons = 14 kJ/km = 4.6 Wh/km = 6.3 Wh/mile. Call it 2 - 2.5% for the highway part, a bit more for the city part.

 

[Chomlee]

I just got notified that my new MY-P VIN has been assigned. Sales rep told me that my car has the new Ryzen chip plus all the other new stuff except for the 4680 battery. I live in SoCal so the car is coming out of Fremont. He proceeded to say that the 4680 battery will NOT offer longer range for my MY-P because that would simply "invalidate" all the existing MYs. It makes no sense for Tesla to do so. He explained that 4680 simply allows Tesla to be more efficient in manufacturing the batteries. They would just put FEWER batteries in the car to achieve similar range as before.

I'm currently stuck in deciding if I should postpone my delivery in hopes to get the 4680 battery. But if there's no benefit, then I don't need to wait.

While I understand the business decision to allow room to grow and potentially offer even longer range at a higher price point, can anyone confirm if this is in fact true?

I will tell you from doing search after search, it’s hard to find out the benefits current buyers with the 4680s will get. My opinion (and this is only my opinion) is that if the new battery packs delivered a better range, a lot of people might be holding off on ordering to make sure they get the new pack and Tesla wouldn’t want that. I am guessing they are keeping the range the same on paper and when people start getting deliveries of the YLR with the new pack, they will get notifications of a range increase. I don’t believe the SA actually knows anything and only the higher ups or guys on the production line know at this point and are tight lipped. I am new to this and just ordered my MYLR today and have been wondering the same thing regarding the batteries. I think in the months that follow, the truth will eventually come out.

 

[Masa F]

My MYLR has an EDD this June/July and live 30 min from Fremont - I’m not holding out for the 4680 because it’s only going to frustrate me if I let it. Practically speaking, for daily driving, I’m more relieved I’ll be getting the Ryzen chip which will have tangible and noticeable benefits.

 

[ElectricAnt54]

I just got notified that my new MY-P VIN has been assigned. Sales rep told me that my car has the new Ryzen chip plus all the other new stuff except for the 4680 battery. I live in SoCal so the car is coming out of Fremont. He proceeded to say that the 4680 battery will NOT offer longer range for my MY-P because that would simply "invalidate" all the existing MYs. It makes no sense for Tesla to do so. He explained that 4680 simply allows Tesla to be more efficient in manufacturing the batteries. They would just put FEWER batteries in the car to achieve similar range as before.

I'm currently stuck in deciding if I should postpone my delivery in hopes to get the 4680 battery. But if there's no benefit, then I don't need to wait.

While I understand the business decision to allow room to grow and potentially offer even longer range at a higher price point, can anyone confirm if this is in fact true?

This makes sense. No need to wait.

 

[Y Knot]

Fewer batteries and a holed out floor —> lower weight to get same range —> quicker car. I care about the acceleration, not the range.

 

[Steve2150]

I wonder if the 4680's will have the additional range capacity and when enough are out there Elon will offer a software update for a charge to release that capacity.

 

[goin2drt]

I just got notified that my new MY-P VIN has been assigned. Sales rep told me that my car has the new Ryzen chip plus all the other new stuff except for the 4680 battery. I live in SoCal so the car is coming out of Fremont. He proceeded to say that the 4680 battery will NOT offer longer range for my MY-P because that would simply "invalidate" all the existing MYs. It makes no sense for Tesla to do so. He explained that 4680 simply allows Tesla to be more efficient in manufacturing the batteries. They would just put FEWER batteries in the car to achieve similar range as before.

I'm currently stuck in deciding if I should postpone my delivery in hopes to get the 4680 battery. But if there's no benefit, then I don't need to wait.

While I understand the business decision to allow room to grow and potentially offer even longer range at a higher price point, can anyone confirm if this is in fact true?

He knows just as much as everyone else on the internet and flying drones outside Austin, NOTHING, until it actually just happens because NO ONE has facts or at least that have shared them as I am sure they have NDA's.

 

[Mrbrock]

I think whats going to happen is in a few months, next year, or maybe once the 4680 production has surpassed 2170 then there will be an update for the 4680 that will then add the range and power they spoke of on Battery day.

No. This makes 0 sense. It will cost Tesla money (more cells) that they will not realize. To make sense for Tesla, 100% of people would need to buy the upgrade. The average Tesla buyer who is happy with current range (there is a waitlist over 100,000 for LR MY right now) is not going to pay for 5-10% more range. Then those extra cells are wasted vs being used in other MY or CT or Semi.

 

[Polymer]

I had assumed the expected or proposed range increase would be driven a good bit by the reduced weight with the one piece front end and structural battery pack, vs any new chemistry or energy denseness of the 4680s vs 2170s. I have read the neighborhood of 400 less lbs, but I guess thats just speculation. The concept of Tesla removing batteries seems strangely anti Tesla, at least to me.

Agreed...they're certainly not going to fill in the space with MORE battery capacity....It feels much more likely they'll keep the capacity the same..and any benefits are strictly because of weight..which doesn't end up being that significant in the overall scheme of things...

No. This makes 0 sense. It will cost Tesla money (more cells) that they will not realize. To make sense for Tesla, 100% of people would need to buy the upgrade. The average Tesla buyer who is happy with current range (there is a waitlist over 100,000 for LR MY right now) is not going to pay for 5-10% more range. Then those extra cells are wasted vs being used in other MY or CT or Semi.

For sure they're not putting MORE capacity. I think that is a for sure thing. Anyone hoping they're filling the same weight/area that is there with 2170s with 4680s is going to be disappointed. Whether they put in the same capacity or less is yet to be determined. I think they take on too much of a risk trying to shave a few extra batteries off. I think the company benefits from using the 4680 in general, the consumers will benefit from the slightly lower weight. Overall it'll end up making a tiny difference. It could just be slightly lower capacity and slightly more range but who knows what's going to come back with certification....I guess we will see soon.

Will they have space (and a way) to add more batteries for extra capacity later? Could be...Would some people be willing to pay for it? Of course...Being ok with the current range does NOT mean you wouldn't pay more for more range. Tesla has already proven that is the case and we're certainly not at the range where that doesn't matter..900 to 1000? Probably very few...If we were talking 500 vs 600 miles, not many but more would care. But 300ish to 400ish? Even more people would care.