Tesla Semi

[Reciprocity]

OK here is a question on "how professional drivers act". I just had lunch with a fellow that was a pro driver for 20+ years, then bought into truck stop chain for the next 30 years. He says he KNOWS about truckers. What he said was - drivers will go from Dallas to Chicago in a non-stop 23 hours marathon. They then wait a few days to get a return load. They doctor their log books. They arrive zombie tired, know they are violating the rules, but almost always push the limits. I asked my bud if 5% of the pros do this or if it is 95% of the pros push the limits. He claims it is 90%. One mans opinion, but he seems to know things. How about here - any inside as to how pro drivers act on a frequent basis?

This is deadly dangerous and truckers and easily solved with tech. Maybe a block chain based log. Why do they do this? Is it so they only have to work 2 days a week (2x20 hour shifts)? If the Tesla semi is half the cost per mile, these guys lose their routes to Tesla's that are tracked and logged digitally which lowers the liability for the companies they work for so that when one of these wreckless idiots kills someone, it won't be in a Tesla.

If these guys are independent, then they might be willing to trade off the crazy schedule for the lower cost of operations and lower downtime for maintenance. Wind Shields alone can apparently cost several weeks of downtime per year.

 

[AZ Desert Driver]

My bud said truckers are a lot of crude folks - on CB about where the Broads were, and other low life things. He said he would meet some in the lot and "convince" them to keep moving on to a different truck stop. I don't want to believe that the roads are full of such idiots driving heavy loads near me. From earlier messages in this forum, I got an appreciation for how professional some truckers are. I was pissed when my bud said 90% are low life.
How many truck lines have the tech deployed now to keep low life to a minimum. When did this become common?

 

[BioSehnsucht]

Electronic Logging Devices, which can't be cheated (or at least, not as easy as keeping two different log books for when you get pulled over) are required by law as of this month. With ELDs, truckers will have to follow the rules, or run a much greater risk of getting caught failing to do so.

Of course, this assumes everyone follows the law and installs / uses an ELD. So far, there's been resistance.

https://www.trucks.com/2017/12/18/truckers-eld-mandate-compliance-rates/

There are approximately 3.5 million truckers in the U.S., according to the American Trucking Associations.

Motor carrier and driver surveys suggest that larger carriers have installed the devices on their trucks prior to the Monday deadline. However, smaller carriers and independent truckers are not prepared. They were hoping for a last-minute delay in the rule taking effect by the Trump administration. It didn’t happen.

Approximately 75 percent of the 420 fleets surveyed by CarriersList and Kenco Group on Dec. 11 claimed to be ELD ready prior to the deadline.

That is up from less than 50 percent of carriers that said they were ELD ready in October, according to the survey.

However, an online survey by HELP Inc., the provider of PrePass weigh station bypass and technology services, found that of 1,620 respondents, 33 percent had selected and installed an ELD by early December.

Of those who have not installed an ELD, 68 percent said they did not plan to do so prior to Dec. 18, according to the survey, and 31 percent said they didn’t plan to install an ELD at all.

Some drivers, mainly independent truckers and small carriers, have threatened to leave the industry rather than switch to ELDs from paper logs.

...

While roadside enforcement is supposed to start issuing tickets to carriers not compliant on Dec. 18, they will not be blocked from operating until April 1, according to the Commercial Vehicle Safety Alliance, an agency charged with enforcing the ELD mandate.

I'm not sure what these truckers who threaten to "leave the industry" are going to do if they do so. If it is too costly to stay in business, then you were already on the ropes. If this is enough to make you leave just because it's "too onerous" (never mind that ELD's can actually make your life easier ... ), then perhaps you were on the way out already. I think that most of those who claimed they would leave won't, because they were just trying to stall and/or get the mandate removed

I guess the good news for those who stalled is that they will only be issued tickets until April 1 2018, and can still operate, as opposed to being forced to cease operation immediately.

 

[AZ Desert Driver]

Electronic Logging Devices, which can't be cheated (or at least, not as easy as keeping two different log books for when you get pulled over) are required by law as of this month. With ELDs, truckers will have to follow the rules, or run a much greater risk of getting caught failing to do so.

Of course, this assumes everyone follows the law and installs / uses an ELD. So far, there's been resistance.

https://www.trucks.com/2017/12/18/truckers-eld-mandate-compliance-rates/



I'm not sure what these truckers who threaten to "leave the industry" are going to do if they do so. If it is too costly to stay in business, then you were already on the ropes. If this is enough to make you leave just because it's "too onerous" (never mind that ELD's can actually make your life easier ... ), then perhaps you were on the way out already. I think that most of those who claimed they would leave won't, because they were just trying to stall and/or get the mandate removed

I guess the good news for those who stalled is that they will only be issued tickets until April 1 2018, and can still operate, as opposed to being forced to cease operation immediately.

This is really disturbing- only recently have rules been implemented at keeping divers honest - and many are resisting being asked to be professional. Greed over safety of the public they interact with. I was just starting to view truck drivers as responsible and professional. Now I hear how many are objecting to log books that they cant falsify - thousands of them.
This confirms what my bud was saying - how drivers would become zombie drivers to cram as many miles in as possible and falsify their logs. Even then, their logs were often not checked. What sort of low life puts my life at risk for his profit? What is a good name for this behavior?

 

[Off Shore]

What is a good name for this behavior?

Normal human behavior, alas.

 

[AZ Desert Driver]

I just read several comments from Drivers protesting Electronic logs. Seems like the equipment is far from perfect. But the tone was - " I hate when Govmnt gets into MY business. I'll charge more for hauling. I'll find a new way to cheat, because only I know how to run the trucking business. My profit and family life are more important than safety." Of the dozen or so comments - not one was in favor of ELD. Which suggests widespread need/desire to run unsafe. Tell me I'm way off base in viewing truckers now with widespread disdain.

 

[DurandalAI]

Usually it’s the independent owner operators that have this attitude and behavior, but I’m sure some of the smaller fleets it is that way too. It is unfortunate that this is how things are, but the electronic logs should help. Another issue is that in southern states, trucks from Mexico often do not fall within their own regulations, let alone US regulations.

 

[BioSehnsucht]

Part of the blame is on the way trucking is contracted, which incentivizes bad behavior. Also, the amount paid to drivers may just be too low to be sustainable in a safe fashion as well (if they made more, the incentivizing would be less worth the risk of bad behavior) - but raising this so that they can drive safely and still make enough money would mean that shipping costs for some things would go up, so it's not a problem that is likely to fix itself. Any fixes are going to be met with resistance from truckers to the companies that use their services to the customers of those companies.

Hopefully the ELD mandate will force things to eventually find a new and overall better balance point, though it may occur through a combination of drivers leaving the trade, shipping costs rising (and thus costs of those things shipped), etc.

I suspect this is a larger problem in the independent trucking world, and the general logistics world, but that companies that do their own internal trucking (like UPS) probably have saner expectations and thus are less likely to be experiencing these problems, and thus will be less impacted and possibly even better off with the switch to ELD.

 

[TNEVol]

Usually it’s the independent owner operators that have this attitude and behavior, but I’m sure some of the smaller fleets it is that way too. It is unfortunate that this is how things are, but the electronic logs should help. Another issue is that in southern states, trucks from Mexico often do not fall within their own regulations, let alone US regulations.

I have a lengty history with trucking. Back in the 60s most drivers worked for unionized companies. They had benefits, pensions and seniority. I knew the Roadway drivers very well. As they got older and had more seniority with good safety records they bid more favorable runs and more time at home along with more $$. The small and indepent operators at te time developed the cowboy image and those I knew did, in fact, use duplicate sets of logs and run too long. IMO this came about due to price competition almost at the same time as oil price increases. My partner in our small trucking company in the 90s was and is very proud of his driving skills but felt compeled to push the rules to the limit. For the last decade driving has been one of a very few decent jobs for HS grads. Carriers mostly have extensive turnover and hire poorly trained people. Pay for the most part is poor and the business is so competitive that there is little room for increased wages. Owner operators and leasing arrangements are often dead end financial arrangement for drivers wqho don't have the education or resources to understand the arrangements (see Port of LA issues). Now there is computer and sometimes video monitoring but there remains the temptation to break the rules or look the other way.

Despite this, there are good companies who value safety and retain drivers. Often these are Regional carriers.

 

[AZ Desert Driver]

As I drive down the road- should I feel comfortable behind a truck with a XYZ logo, and steer away from one with a PQR label? Anyone willing to raise a red flag on who to be specifically alert toward? [I think naming names might get one in trouble...liable and all that legal stuff - but free speech and all that--who should I be watching extra hard?]

 

[AZ Desert Driver]

Part of the blame is on the way trucking is contracted, which incentivizes bad behavior. Also, the amount paid to drivers may just be too low to be sustainable in a safe fashion as well (if they made more, the incentivizing would be less worth the risk of bad behavior) - but raising this so that they can drive safely and still make enough money would mean that shipping costs for some things would go up, so it's not a problem that is likely to fix itself. Any fixes are going to be met with resistance from truckers to the companies that use their services to the customers of those companies.

Hopefully the ELD mandate will force things to eventually find a new and overall better balance point, though it may occur through a combination of drivers leaving the trade, shipping costs rising (and thus costs of those things shipped), etc.

I suspect this is a larger problem in the independent trucking world, and the general logistics world, but that companies that do their own internal trucking (like UPS) probably have saner expectations and thus are less likely to be experiencing these problems, and thus will be less impacted and possibly even better off with the switch to ELD.

If a driver and his wife are team trucking...and George gets to his 11 hour limit, can Martha take the wheel and finish the route while George rests? [I presume Martha has to punch in a pin-code to activate the truck]. And if George is inclined, could he not punch in Martha code and keep on trucking? And could George get out his alternate personality [Joe] and punch in Joes pin code and continue trucking? Will the ELD be able to curb this obvious, devious, rule breaking?

 

[SwTslaGrl]

In the EU the ELD only allows rest time when the truck isn't moving. The ELD is a set of rules and it could be looked into if there's an accident.

 

[AZ Desert Driver]

In the EU the ELD only allows rest time when the truck isn't moving. The ELD is a set of rules and it could be looked into if there's an accident.

hmmm- so the TRUCK is required to rest. the Driver can do whatever - gamble, drink, drive some other truck? Any way to prove he showered and slept without being a Nag?
Has the EU system been in action for a long time? Is it better than the USA system just being deployed. Does it WORK at making trucking industry safer?

 

[SwTslaGrl]

hmmm- so the TRUCK is required to rest. the Driver can do whatever - gamble, drink, drive some other truck? Any way to prove he showered and slept without being a Nag?
Has the EU system been in action for a long time? Is it better than the USA system just being deployed. Does it WORK at making trucking industry safer?

I think it works reasonably in the EU, I see a lot of resting trucks early in the mornings
The current EU rules is from 2006 but there was paper logs that was punched before the ELD. I would guess the US system is similar to other international rules like the EU ELD.

 

[AZ Desert Driver]

I'm getting the sense that US truck drivers are a bunch of cheats, but that EU drivers can be trusted. I hope I'm wrong- I WANT to trust those big rigs in the lane beside me. I want to know they are well maintained, well balanced, and well driven by Professional drivers. Some of the comments about have shaken my trust. Could it be that EU drivers are an honest bunch - much more than the US bunch? Could it be that there are only a few in that bunch that are cheating and that the vast majority are reliable (even if low paid, entry level, independent). Please - somebody with a lot of trucking experience - tell me a good story. Tell me why my buddy who said (all) Truckers cheat was exaggerating.

 

[jerry33]

I'm getting the sense that US truck drivers are a bunch of cheats, but that EU drivers can be trusted. I hope I'm wrong- I WANT to trust those big rigs in the lane beside me. I want to know they are well maintained, well balanced, and well driven by Professional drivers. Some of the comments about have shaken my trust. Could it be that EU drivers are an honest bunch - much more than the US bunch? Could it be that there are only a few in that bunch that are cheating and that the vast majority are reliable (even if low paid, entry level, independent). Please - somebody with a lot of trucking experience - tell me a good story. Tell me why my buddy who said (all) Truckers cheat was exaggerating.

I often have night time trips, and i see plenty of trucks parked at rest stops, and not so many on the road. As I said before, these days almost every trucking company has monitoring so they know what the truck is doing. The big fleets started around thirty years ago, and now almost every fleet has this kind of monitoring. Initially they did it because they can determine the health of the vehicle and when it needs to be serviced, but the programmers added code to monitor speeds and rest stops. So for the most part if it's a company vehicle, it will be following the rules. And when you're listening to anecdotes, truckers have a lot in common with fishermen

 

[neroden]

This is really disturbing- only recently have rules been implemented at keeping divers honest - and many are resisting being asked to be professional. Greed over safety of the public they interact with.

Look up the history of the Longshoremen. They screamed bloody murder and went on strike repeatedly when containerization was implemented.... because *they couldn't pilfer from the goods being unloaded from the ship any more*. Seriously, this is the consensus view of that historical event and there's no real dispute about it....

For some reason this sort of stuff has happened in transportation a lot. Don't take this as a knock on unions, because it isn't; it's a knock on historic transportation worker culture.

The fact is that the electronic log books really are fixing the problem. One of the problems was that the dynamics of the industry meant that "a few bad apples spoil the bunch" -- the bad truckers would drive out the good truckers. (It's also an analog to Gresham's Law regarding coinage.)

If one trucker breaks the laws, speeds, drives while tired, falsifies his logbook, etc., *he makes more money* and *he delivers the goods faster* so he gets rewarded by the company which hired him. While the by-the-book trucker makes less money and doesn't get rewarded with the plum jobs. (Often the management gave a wink and a nod and knew that they were promoting cheaters, too.) You end up with a culture where you have to cheat just to keep up with the other cheaters.

When nobody can get away with cheating, then the cheaters get kicked out and it becomes possible for the most responsible people to rise to the top, rather than letting the worst cheaters rise to the top.

Something similar happened with CEOs, by the way -- the current perverse incentives encourage criminals to get to the top and chase away the honest CEOs...

This is why we need regulations.

 

[AZ Desert Driver]

Look up the history of the Longshoremen. They screamed bloody murder and went on strike repeatedly when containerization was implemented.... because *they couldn't pilfer from the goods being unloaded from the ship any more*. Seriously, this is the consensus view of that historical event and there's no real dispute about it....

For some reason this sort of stuff has happened in transportation a lot. Don't take this as a knock on unions, because it isn't; it's a knock on historic transportation worker culture.

The fact is that the electronic log books really are fixing the problem. One of the problems was that the dynamics of the industry meant that "a few bad apples spoil the bunch" -- the bad truckers would drive out the good truckers. (It's also an analog to Gresham's Law regarding coinage.)

If one trucker breaks the laws, speeds, drives while tired, falsifies his logbook, etc., *he makes more money* and *he delivers the goods faster* so he gets rewarded by the company which hired him. While the by-the-book trucker makes less money and doesn't get rewarded with the plum jobs. (Often the management gave a wink and a nod and knew that they were promoting cheaters, too.) You end up with a culture where you have to cheat just to keep up with the other cheaters.

When nobody can get away with cheating, then the cheaters get kicked out and it becomes possible for the most responsible people to rise to the top, rather than letting the worst cheaters rise to the top.

Something similar happened with CEOs, by the way -- the current perverse incentives encourage criminals to get to the top and chase away the honest CEOs...

This is why we need regulations.

Thank You. This is a history that I can understand. It fits with my TV myths about Longshoremen, and Unions and tough guys that have poor education but strong alliances. It gives me hope that there are only a few bad apples. And that most companies and shippers and truckers are hard working professionals.

 

[Curt Renz]

 

[RobStark]

https://www.trucks.com/2018/01/02/navistar-versus-tesla-electric-trucks/

Navistar CEO to Tesla: We’ll Have More Electric Trucks Than You (in 2025)

Navistar CEO thinks his competitive advantage in having relationship with VW Group, an established dealership network, service center network, brand and customer relationships means he will outcompete Tesla.

He seems to have missed the fact that for a large number of BEV Semi Trucks you need lots of low cost battery cells.