Tesla Supercharger network

[XHabjab]

As I'm sure you are aware, it's not quite as black and white as that. Charging curve, SOC and battery temperature all mean a hell of a lot more than peak charge speed. I'd rather share a SC site with a toasty Kona charging to 80% than a frozen Model 3 who is going for a 100% charge.

Except that many non-Tesla vehicles have the charge port on the wrong side, and will take up 2 parking/charging spots. The Rivian above for example. A new version of ICE-ing.

I don’t know offhand where the charge port is on a Kona. Somebody please fill in this detail.

 

[ewoodrick]

And that's the main reason we don't want other, slower charging cars, charging at Superchargers - they'll tie them up for twice as much time as a Tesla would. This will speak for charging per minute instead of per Kwhr which most don't like either.
Personally, I'm happy about opening up the network but, in order to sustain the growth of the network, they should charge twice as much for such cars since it takes twice as much infrastructure to serve them.

Many have smaller batteries and charge faster than Tesla's do. What do you do in this case.

Remember, letting other cars charge at Tesla locations isn't something that Tesla is giving away. They are getting a HUGE pot of money from the government to subsidize the deployment of even more chargers. More money, more chargers.

And step back to Elon's visions. He doesn't care if Tesla goes bankrupt if the sustainability goals are met. Basically, the more that charge and the less that fill, the better!

 

[ewoodrick]

Except that many non-Tesla vehicles have the charge port on the wrong side, and will take up 2 parking/charging spots. The Rivian above for example. A new version of ICE-ing.

I don’t know offhand where the charge port is on a Kona. Somebody please fill in this detail.

Maybe Tesla will start taking this into consideration for newer chargers?

I pulled a boat to Florida a few months ago. Nothing better than having to unhitch every time I charge because many of the chargers didn't support drive-thru. And yea, there may have been a couple of times when I blocked some pedestals, but that's when the others weren't in use or cars could plug in from the other side.

 

[MP3Mike]

Remember, letting other cars charge at Tesla locations isn't something that Tesla is giving away. They are getting a HUGE pot of money from the government to subsidize the deployment of even more chargers. More money, more chargers.

No they aren't. (Unless you know of some special Tesla only deal they got.)

No NEVI funds have been issued yet, and they can't be applied to something already built.

And on top of that, the sites they have put MagicDock at aren't NEVI compliant even with the MagicDock, so even if funds were available, they wouldn't qualify.

 

[dgpcolorado]

While most people with slow charging cars aren't taking road trips, there are still a few of us out there. My 2014 S-60 has 148k miles on it, the large majority of which are from road trips. It is my only car so I don't have another option.

At 20% I'm usually charging at 55 kW or so and it tapers down from there. Hour to an hour and a half Supercharging sessions are routine to make longer trip legs since my car is down to 162 RM at 100% last I checked and I often have to charge to 98% and drive below 5% to make it.

However, I rarely drive in places with full Supercharger Stations or lines waiting, so you probably aren't waiting for me. Last full Supercharger Station I saw was Hillsboro OR Thanksgiving weekend, so that was something of a special case. And the stalls were turning over quickly so the waits were short.


^ Supercharging at the new Moab UT station last week. I was the only car there. Most of us still use the old slow four stall station because the amenities are better.

 

[ewoodrick]

Will non-Tesla charging stations make it easier for Tesla owners to charge?

Nope, they already support Tesla just a bad as they support every other car.

For many of the providers, you may get a little easier access if you sign up for their program and use their app/card. But that's still often painful when a pedestal isn't working at 100%.

 

[ewoodrick]

No they aren't. (Unless you know of some special Tesla only deal they got.)

No NEVI funds have been issued yet, and they can't be applied to something already built.

And on top of that, the sites they have put MagicDock at aren't NEVI compliant even with the MagicDock, so even if funds were available, they wouldn't qualify.

Sorry, I guess I was trusting Reuters too much

Exclusive: To tap U.S. government billions, Tesla must unlock EV chargers

Tesla CEO Elon Musk has often talked about opening his Supercharging network to competitors, but has never actually done so in the United States, where the company dominates the electric vehicle market.

www.reuters.com

I was understanding that Tesla would modify their hardware specifications and use the new version to satisfy the requirements and open newer chargers that were built with the money for all multiple vehicles.

This has NOTHING to do with existing chargers, just the new government subsidized ones. And agree, the funds aren't there yet. This is the government, and the announcement was only 2 weeks ago. So maybe mid year if they push hard?

 

[MP3Mike]

I was understanding that Tesla would modify their hardware specifications and use the new version to satisfy the requirements and open newer chargers that were built with the money for all multiple vehicles.

They potentially could, but it can't be anything like the current MagicDock solution. It requires using the Tesla app, and NEVI funds have requirements that people be able to charge without using an app or creating an account, and that isn't all of the requirements that they aren't currently complying with. (Tesla could probably find a solution to most of those problems, I just don't know if they want to.)

This has NOTHING to do with existing chargers, just the new government subsidized ones. And agree, the funds aren't there yet. This is the government, and the announcement was only 2 weeks ago. So maybe mid year if they push hard?

The RFPs for the NEVI funds will go out this Spring, and then the states will likely select the proposals to grant money to this Fall.

 

[ewoodrick]

They potentially could, but it can't be anything like the current MagicDock solution. It requires using the Tesla app, and NEVI funds have requirements that people be able to charge without using an app or creating an account, and that isn't all of the requirements that they aren't currently complying with. (Tesla could probably find a solution to most of those problems, I just don't know if they want to.)


The RFPs for the NEVI funds will go out this Spring, and then the states will likely select the proposals to grant money to this Fall.

Is it that far-fetched that Tesla add a Credit Card reader? AFAIK MagicDock is a pre-Biden discussion item.

And while it is still probably to be worked, maybe the credit card reader is just a proximity reader internal to the pedestal. No slot, no slide.

For 7.5 billion dollars, Elon may make a small design change.

 

[MP3Mike]

For 7.5 billion dollars, Elon may make a small design change.

Tesla would never get $7.5B. There is a total of $5.5B made available via NEVI split into 52 pieces where each state/territory decides who gets how much. There is an additional $2B that is more targeted at government entities installing public chargers in rural areas. (Likely mostly Level 2 charging.)

But there is no way Tesla would get 100% of the NEVI funding. I suspect that the majority will go to Electrify America, EVgo, ChargePoint, CircleK, Shell Recharge, Blink, etc. (And probably new companies that are setup for no other purpose than to get the NEVI funding.) I would be surprised if Tesla got more than 15%, $825M, of the funds. (But I still think they won't even bother, as they likely don't want to deal with all of the requirements.)

 

[ewoodrick]

Tesla would never get $7.5B. There is a total of $5.5B made available via NEVI split into 52 pieces where each state/territory decides who gets how much. There is an additional $2B that is more targeted at government entities installing public chargers in rural areas. (Likely mostly Level 2 charging.)

But there is no way Tesla would get 100% of the NEVI funding. I suspect that the majority will go to Electrify America, EVgo, ChargePoint, CircleK, Shell Recharge, Blink, etc. (And probably new companies that are setup for no other purpose than to get the NEVI funding.) I would be surprised if Tesla got more than 15%, $825M, of the funds. (But I still think they won't even bother, as they likely don't want to deal with all of the requirements.)

Fine, you are correct, Elon went to visit Biden for no reason. The announcement that was made is bogus and Tesla doesn't care about nearly a billion dollars.

 

[MP3Mike]

The announcement that was made is bogus

No, the announcement isn't bogus. Tesla is going to open ~3500 Superchargers by the end of 2024. But the announcement made no mention of funding. (They have already opened 100, so they are already ~3% of the way there with no NEVI funds.)

Tesla doesn't care about nearly a billion dollars.

Well, we've heard that they rejected ~$6M that they applied for and California granted them for 4 sites because they didn't want to deal with the requirements... So, there is precedence.

And remember the $5.5B is split into 52 pieces, and each state/territory will have their own process, and requirements, for getting a chunk of it. Tesla may go after it in some states and not others. Or they may pass on it all together. We will likely know in about 9 months.

 

[Cosmacelf]

Thing is, opening up the network makes economic sense for Tesla even without funding. If they stick to lightly used sites, they get incremental revenue with very little capital outlay. And it is a marketing coup.

 

[ewoodrick]

No, the announcement isn't bogus. Tesla is going to open ~3500 Superchargers by the end of 2024. But the announcement made no mention of funding.


Well, we've heard that they rejected ~$6M that they applied for and California granted them for 4 sites because they didn't want to deal with the requirements... So, there is precedence.

And remember the $5.5B is split into 52 pieces, and each state/territory will have their own process, and requirements, for getting a chunk of it. Tesla may go after it in some states and not others. Or they may pass on it all together. We will likely know in about 9 months.

~$6M is a VERY different number than $825M.

~$6M doesn't give me much development money. Tesla should be easily able to amortize it over $825M.

I said that you are right, are you trying to argue the point? My point about the announcement was that it was bogus that Elon had to meet with Biden to do it. It would have been cheaper and just as effective just to make a tweet.

 

[MP3Mike]

~$6M is a VERY different number than $825M.

~$6M doesn't give me much development money. Tesla should be easily able to amortize it over $825M.

The $6M was for 4 sites or $1.5M per site. The $825M would likely be for a LOT of sites. It only funds 80% of the cost, and it seems like Tesla spends less than $200k on a typical site. So that $825M would be for more than 5000 sites. (Say ~100 sites in each state/territory.) And really that $200k is likely for a ~12 stall site, and NEVI is really targetting 4 stall sites. So, it could maybe be enough funding for 10,000 sites, or only $82k/site. (Which is way more than Tesla/Biden announced Tesla would open.) That makes the California funding look way more attractive.

After doing that math, I'm thinking that Tesla will get way less than $825M if they get any.

Edit: Note I am basing my costs from what I have seen on permits for Supercharger installs, so it could be off some... (I don't think Tesla has publicly said how much a Supercharger install costs. But if they apply for any NEVI funding we will find out.)

 

[Electroman]

"Charging will ruin everything, so I can't get an EV!!!"

Let me fix that. "Charging will ruin other people's experience and bring down EV adoption, let me buy a real EV and not a compliance EV"

 

[Feathermerchan]

If Tesla can at least break even on Tesla only Superchargers, think of what they can make on open Superchargers which charge more $ for their use by non-Teslas. Plus every non-Tesla owner will install the Tesla app, set up an account and save a credit card to the account. Makes it pretty easy to just order a Tesla.

As far as use goes, it may be possible for Tesla to recognize a non-Tesla car with an account at the Supercharger and just start charging like when a Tesla plugs in.

 

[MP3Mike]

As far as use goes, it may be possible for Tesla to recognize a non-Tesla car with an account at the Supercharger and just start charging like when a Tesla plugs in.

Not at this point, with the equipment as it is. (There is no way to undock the CCS adapter without having started the charging via the app.)

 

[ewoodrick]

If Tesla can at least break even on Tesla only Superchargers, think of what they can make on open Superchargers which charge more $ for their use by non-Teslas. Plus every non-Tesla owner will install the Tesla app, set up an account and save a credit card to the account. Makes it pretty easy to just order a Tesla.

Today? Maybe 10% more at best. Teslas do tend to outnumber everyone else combined.

 

[wdolson]

Is it that far-fetched that Tesla add a Credit Card reader? AFAIK MagicDock is a pre-Biden discussion item.

And while it is still probably to be worked, maybe the credit card reader is just a proximity reader internal to the pedestal. No slot, no slide.

For 7.5 billion dollars, Elon may make a small design change.

Tesla could have one credit card kiosk per site and the user puts in the pedestal number. Another option that would be more on brand for Tesla is a web site that you go to with your phone and pay there. The world is headed that direction now.