reddy
Active Member
I am expecting the handshaking and ID to happen at the adapter level. The adapter will be linked to a credit card for billing, and could be used for more than one car.
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Tesla Supercharger network
- Thread starter dsm363
- Start date
This is already solved in Europe where Tesla allow non-Tesla cars to use Superchargers (via the Tesla app on phones). Here, the adapter needed is for older Teslas to connect to Superchargers (since newer ones have CCS plugs on them), but the adapter is dumb, all the electronics being in the car.
Long-term, CCS supports identifying the car via the handshakes so that model is also possible with non-Tesla vehicles.
One thing I'm not sure about is whether newer Tesla vehicles in N. America also have CCS protocol support as European market ones have done since Model 3 (and older model S/X do via a simple hardware upgrade to allow the adapter to be used). It would make sense for them to migrate to the CCS protocol even if they succeed in establishing the Tesla connector as the standard in the N.America market, but I don't know if this is actually happening.
No, the adapter would be passive. As @arg said, this is solved in Europe where non-Teslas authorize the charging session via the Tesla app. If Tesla is going to try to get NEVI funds to support the Superchargers that won't be enough. They would likely have to add a kiosk at each site to support using a physical credit card on site.
It’s a little more than that. The problem is the SAE committee refused to allow AC and DC on the same pins, and wouldn’t agree on a connector in time for Tesla to meet schedule for the 2012 Model S. What I heard was Tesla tried to give the connector we know and love to the committee.
The committee did not yet believe DC charging was essential. They didn’t want DC on the pins because contactors (big relays) for DC cost more than AC and felt they had to have a contactor rated to break a DC connection if there was any chance DC was present. On the other hand the argument is DC will never be present unless the vehicle negotiates for it. Committees are not known for intelligence.
So, for AC Tesla uses exactly the same protocol as J1772 but on a different connector. This is how the adapters work, how Tesla’s adapter converts J1772, there isn’t anything to convert other than the pin out.
The “charger” for J1772 is on the EV. For DC the control of current and voltage is off-vehicle but directed by communication with the vehicle. I don’t know CCS protocol is anything close to what Tesla speaks. Tesla had a lot of trouble initially creating a CHAdeMO adapter. Problem was the CHAdeMO chargers behaved the way a Nissan LEAF accepted, not necessarily what the spec said. Took a while to reverse engineer. Tesla split the tasks between the adapter and the car, so it took some time before all/most Teslas were updated to use the CHAdeMO adapter. A year or so for the 3.
When Tesla expands access to CCS they might add a second cable to the pedestal. They might erect CCS-only pedestals. We also do not know if CCS will be billed the same kWh rate as Teslas.
I think it is inevitable Tesla adds CCS. It is an untapped market currently occupied by mildly competent companies who primarily want free “infrastructure” money from governments to stake their territory to keep others out. Tesla has an enviable record on uptime. The others are a gamble as to whether one will be functional or not.
srs5694
Active Member
My understanding is that for AC (Level 1 and Level 2), Tesla's protocol is similar to the J1772 Level 1/2 protocol, but not quite identical. Certainly it's possible to configure a Tesla Wall Connector to work with Teslas, but not with other EVs. As I understand it, Tesla's EVSEs start out trying to use the Tesla protocol and then, if that fails and they're configured to work with both, try J1772. This supposedly creates delays of a few seconds between plugging in and charging a non-Tesla EV when using an adapter. (I don't own a non-Tesla EV, and so have never experienced this personally, but it's what I've heard from multiple sources.) AFAIK, all Teslas since the Model S (I don't know about the original Roadster) can "speak" J1772 natively, so plugging a J1772 EVSE into a Tesla via an adapter works fine.
It's not. My understanding is that both CHAdeMO and the Tesla fast-charging protocols use the CAN bus, whereas CCS uses something else, the name of which eludes me. That's why older North American Teslas need a hardware upgrade before they can use any of the new crop of "dumb" CCS adapters; the car needs to be able to "talk" the CCS protocol, and the hardware provided in Teslas made until late 2020 lack that hardware. (The Setec CCS adapter includes circuitry and software/firmware to convert between the protocols, and so works even with older Teslas; but it's got other limitations.)
There's been reporting that Tesla will use something called "Magic Dock," which is described as a "built-in adapter." The details in this reporting are vague, but it sounds like an adapter that's keyed in some way (physically, electronically, or both) so that it must remain attached to the pedestal and/or the charging cable at all times. Thus, if you drive a Tesla, you'd unplug the NACS plug from the adapter, which remains attached to the pedestal, and return the NACS plug to the adapter when you're done. If you drive a CCS1 vehicle, you'd unplug the adapter from the pedestal (with the NACS plug attached to the adapter), then return the adapter/cable to the pedestal when done. This sounds like an elegant solution that would save costs on cables and maintain maximum flexibility if it works; however, this interpretation of mine is based on scant reporting that is in turn based on leaked information from half a year ago, so take it with a HUGE grain of salt. Even if this was the plan, it's conceivable that Tesla has run into problems getting it to work and so has already abandoned it and is planning to do something else.
I doubt if there's enough money in the CCS DC fast charging space to motivate Tesla to move in a big way into this space. Speculation is that Tesla is planning to do this in order to get their hands on state and/or Federal incentive money, which more-or-less requires use of CCS. (Some people suggest that Tesla's opening NACS is an effort to bypass the CCS requirement, but this analsysis assumes that regulators would agree, which I think is a dubious assumption.) Government incentive money, if Tesla can get it, will help them reduce the costs of Supercharger deployments, which they pretty much have to do in order to support their primary business of selling EVs. Of course, Tesla's real motives are known only to Tesla executives, and maybe a few people close to those executives.
Not sure where to put this, but general SC thread seems ok, because this relates to max charge rate. Arrived in Beaver, UT in a S2022 Plaid at about 9% SOC after 215 mi high speed driving at 30F and saw 257 KW on the app. How is this possible on a 250 KW charger? There were about 10 other cars at the 24 stall station. Amazing, this makes long distance travel times equivalent to ICE. Drove 1200 mi in two days, in winter, at times slowed to 35 mph for snow, single older driver, with AP. I can’t even come close to 500 mi/day in my 2015 S70D.
Because it isn't an exactly 250kW charger? The original spec was based on charging the Model 3/Y, which have a lower voltage battery than the current Model S/X. So at the same state of charge/amp output where a Model 3 might see ~250kW, the Model S sees more than 250kW.
Just like EA advertises some of their chargers as 150kW, when they can actually provide ~170kW. (They didn't want to complicate things and advertise another "class" of chargers, so they just labeled them 150kW.)
Unrelated question: What was the range in miles & percentage you had when you started the journey?
The other way of asking this question is, how many miles did you burn to travel 215 miles at high speed at 30F
We traveled 1600 miles last week and used V3 chargers in our 2021 LR MS- we saw the same 250+KW charge rate with the SOC around 20%. The temperatures were a bit warmer than the OP for part of the trip. The preconditioning worked very well which allowed these charge rates, Like the OP, we have traveled in our older MS and while Elon pays for the power, we'll probably only roadtrip in the new one now. We did experience significant range hit with 30-40MPH headwinds between PHX and LA- almost 30% range hit on that stretch of road. We were driving the posted speedlimit becuase we knew the wind would be a factor. Once in CA- we managed to get through the grapevine before the weather closed it. We saw 30degrees. and wind and snow- So again we experienced a range hit, but not as big as the previous leg- maybe 20%. Again we drove the speed limit. When we got to Red Bluff we ended up staying an extra day due to I-5 being closed north of Redding. So on Saturday- when they opened the freeway- we drove from Red Bluff to Seattle- did the trip in 11 hours 15 min and charged 5 times- although to be honest- 2 of the charges were very short, just to charge at two new superchargers that recently opened in OR. Would have been only 11 hours but we stopped for lunch not at a supercharger 
Total distance traveled Saturday 640 miles - I think we'd have done almost exactly the same time in an ICE. The LR S is a perfect road trip car.
Total distance traveled Saturday 640 miles - I think we'd have done almost exactly the same time in an ICE. The LR S is a perfect road trip car.
israndy
Supercharger Hunter
Is the 2021 the Raven Generation or the Plaid Generation? Which one has the longer range? Not that I can afford either.
On my trip to WA recently in my '18 LR RWD TM3 I did the return trip waking up in Yakima and made it back to Alameda in a day of driving, so maybe 7am to 9pm, and that's with stopping for free 50kW charging at stops along the way. One day I'll finally pay for each charge so I can get the trip time that ABRP plans for me, but it'll have to be somewhere that doesn't have a free charge option... (thanks CalTrans)
On my trip to WA recently in my '18 LR RWD TM3 I did the return trip waking up in Yakima and made it back to Alameda in a day of driving, so maybe 7am to 9pm, and that's with stopping for free 50kW charging at stops along the way. One day I'll finally pay for each charge so I can get the trip time that ABRP plans for me, but it'll have to be somewhere that doesn't have a free charge option... (thanks CalTrans)
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XHabjab
TSLA Bull
Also, the 250kW is what goes into the battery.
If you have things like infotainment, seat heaters, climate control running while you are charging, the car will gratefully take that and keep you warm/cool as desired while charging.
israndy
Supercharger Hunter
Bugeater
Member
ReddyLeaf, I don't understand why you say an older S can't go 500+ miles in a day. I drove over 1500 miles in 2 days in my 2012 MS P90. Max charge rate is ~150KW. The first day we drove 16 hours. The second day we drove 14 hours. See the trip route on the map.
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bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
I've pushed 850 miles in an 2013 P85 before in a single day. 1000 miles in my 2018 M3P.
It's doable, 18h of driving/charging, but not that much fun.
Well, that’s the difference. My 2015S70D never charged over 115 KW, even when new. Now max charge is about 100-105 KW, for a few minutes, even warm at 5%. Drops below 50 KW very quickly. I now typically charge 5-50% and jump to the next SC to minimize time. New rated range was 240, now it’s about 220 mi. Also, I had a pretty scary experience in rural NV after dark, and no longer drive more than about 10 hrs or past dusk. The trip with the Plaid was a special case that I won’t be repeating.
Bugeater
Member
@ReddyLeaf, 115 - 150 doesn't make much difference. When mine was a P85 max charge was 90KW. Now as a P90 it's not much faster overall. You just have to plan for a LOT of driving! Since you had a 70 that's the biggest reason. Just not the same range and more stops. That's exactly why I got an 85 to start and was thrilled when it was upgraded to a 90 after 7 years and 11 months!
I've done 600+ in a day with my 2016 Model S a number of times. The first trip was in 2016 when they were having a lot of problems with superchargers in California. On that trip I was stuck in Gilroy for a couple of hours getting less than 50 KW. It was bouncing between 10 and 50, mostly around 20. I tried multiple stalls and it was the same with all of them.
The next day I ran into a tech replacing the cables on superchargers in the Valley and he told me that Tesla was seeing heavily used superchargers in warm climates breaking down much faster than expected. With hot temps and frequent use the SC never had a chance to cool down and things started to wear out quicker.
That supercharger only had a couple of stalls running at a decent charge rate and I initially got stuck at a slow one. The tech had me transfer to the one he had just fixed and I got a good rate for the rest of the charge.
Back in 2016 I had to make some short runs between SCs because they were spaced oddly and there weren't as many choices as today.
600+ in a day takes a bit longer in my 2016 than it did in an ICE, but it's very doable.
Chuq
Active Member
It looks like many US superchargers are showing as "Open to non-Teslas" on the "non-Tesla charging" part of the app!
- CA: Scotts Valley and Placerville
- NY: Batavia, Hancock, Fredonia, Verona, Parish, Red Hook, Brewster, Malta.
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