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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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I’m one of the most bullish TMCers when it comes to Bitcoin but this move from Elon is causing anxiety.

1.) BTC has the potential to plummet down to 25K. It would start to create losses on vehicle sales. I don’t think Tesla sells enough cars with BTC to matter but the bears will assume all 800k cars delivered this year was all in BTC.

2.) State governments will want their pound of flesh. Is the tax and registration going to be paid in fiat?
Regarding point 1 - Tesla already takes foreign currency risk when selling vehicles in non-USD (although that has a partial natural hedge as many suppliers are paid in the same currency). I would expect that Tesla has limits set within its treasury governance policy as to the amount of exposure it is willing to accept in BTC. Anything in excess of this limit could be hedged (there are BTC/USD derivatives available for this purpose).

Also, there just aren't that many people with enough BTC and the want to purchase a Tesla in the US to really move the needle. There are only <20m BTC in existence and a substantial portion of that is locked away in wallets of early investors, long term funds, foreign owners, or where the keys have simply been lost over time.
 
The obsession with bitcoin is absolutely silly. I would be staggered if more than 0.1% of teslas sold in 2021 are paid for with bitcoin. We should be more excited about the amount of people who will/will not buy a Tesla in andorra.
This is just elon being his usual self on twitter. It has zero impact on the valuation of the company, yet I guess we will get 1,000 posts about it today :(
If we must discuss it, lets discuss how tesla investing in bitcoin undermines its message about climate change and actually damages the brand they have taken so long to build up.
 
Thanks for this data.
@avoigt my 2020 data for TSLA has 36.37 GWh made up of 34.40 GWh mobile and 1.97 GWh stationary. That represents 30.4% of global BEV+PHEV cell consumption by GWh. (the HEV consumption is trivial, about 3% so no longer material). That is up from 26.3 GWh in mobility for TSLA in 2019 which was then 31.6% market share by GWh. I have posted details of methodologies etc here in the past, and my numbers compare well with some industry data sources. Let me know if you need more info.
I have completely missed the Tesla BEV Competition Developments thread, lots of good info in there.
No worries. If you look at my post Tesla BEV Competition Developments you can see most of the info, and some commentary from myself that I suggest you read. Other info is in other posts including a more detailed by vehicle manufacturer perspective, and by cell manufacturer perspective. All of this is based on public domain data, none of this is proprietary, though it has taken considerable effort to fill the data gaps in adequately.

Are there any good estimates of global cell production over the next few years, and/or estimates of Tesla's share of production and usage? I've seen several estimates of Tesla's production/usage, but none that I trust.
 
Anyone know what that means for taxes for the buyer? I’m not going to buy a Tesla with bitcoin but I’m curious if people who do have a lot of bitcoin will be able to buy a car without having to pay taxes on their bitcoin gains?

Common sense says the IRS will require you to pay taxes on the bitcoin gains calculated based upon the Bitcoin exchange rate offered by the merchant. It cannot be any other way. Could someone ignore that and perhaps slip through the cracks? Of course! But it would be dumb to try, just like any other blatant tax cheating.
@StealthP3D seems to be correct per IRS guidance.


The sale or other exchange of virtual currencies, or the use of virtual currencies to pay for goods or services, or holding virtual currencies as an investment, generally has tax consequences that could result in tax liability.
There is also general crypto FAQ linked to that page.

Does it make US tax reporting a pain? Yes. Can someone try to cheat the system? As always. Should you? No.
 
@StealthP3D seems to be correct per IRS guidance.



There is also general crypto FAQ linked to that page.

Does it make US tax reporting a pain? Yes. Can someone try to cheat the system? As always. Should you? No.
CNBC is reporting that Tesla will add Btc payments as additions to their existing hoard.

It seems unclear how accounting booking will be valued on these events. Is this a true sale or a barter or what. So additional Btc are being accumulated in exchange for product maybe?
 
I’m one of the most bullish TMCers when it comes to Bitcoin but this move from Elon is causing anxiety.

1.) BTC has the potential to plummet down to 25K. It would start to create losses on vehicle sales. I don’t think Tesla sells enough cars with BTC to matter but the bears will assume all 800k cars delivered this year was all in BTC.

2.) State governments will want their pound of flesh. Is the tax and registration going to be paid in fiat?

About value plummeting, it is really hard to perform worse than fiat money like for example the USD. The bitcoin equivalent plot will most likely (with the occasional hiccup) be a left to right reflection of this :)

1616584020467.png
 
About value plummeting, it is really hard to perform worse than fiat money like for example the USD. The bitcoin equivalent plot will most likely (with the occasional hiccup) be a left to right reflection of this :)

View attachment 647501
Oh come on you are comparing how something like BTC could drop massively in a day with inflation over 106 years.
 
While I agree that current factories will continue to increase throughput and create new lines, I fully expect Tesla to start/announce a new factory every year for the next 5 years. It is just in their DNA to continually improve and expand to achieve the mission.

Also, disagree the market could be flat, I think the major items that will move the stock are financials and manufacturing numbers like production and delivery numbers coupled with margin. I imagine that Elon will never stop reducing prices when economies of scale milestones are being obliterated. He'll continue to ensure they are always production constrained, no matter how much incredible value they pack into the car and he'll never advertise, never pay a dividend because every penny is spent towards engineering and manufacturing. If he gave money to investors it would be like marketing and he hates marketing. But it's also the reason that many folks don't yet know about Teslas' insurmountable lead that is continuing to get bigger as the years go by.

I think 2021 will be huge when it is seen how much economies of scale and production/deliveries are occurring relative to traditional auto in markets that Tesla currently competes in.
Tl;dr; Grow as fast as reasonably possible by folding profit back in. Eventually that spending will decrease as a percentage of the company and they can continue to reduce prices while rewarding investors.

Long, parenthetical, but possibly interesting at the end:

Great post, and I agree with it except the bolded section, specifically "never". Elon has Tweeted about Tesla paying dividends in the far future when profit > useful spending. At some point, the aggregated growth curves must taper off to maintenance/ population growth level, while Tesla itself gets larger. Expansion spending becomes less of the operating profit and a minor shift in vehicle price can produce billions in surplus profit without greatly impacting purchasability.

There is also his statement from a leaked e-mail:
"When looking at our actual profitability, it's very low at about 1% for the past year. Investors are giving us a lot of credit for future profits, but if, at any point, they conclude that's not going to happen, our stock will immediately get crushed like a soufflé under a sledge hammer!"

Current profits matter to show the company is viable (though cash flow positive does too vs GAAP) and aid cash raises, but future profits are a carrot that allow for dividends as a payback to investors for their investment (along with stock appreciation (also tied to future success) and internal motivations).
Of course, the stock price != true value of a company, and if there is sufficient cash on hand, SP is somewhat removed from its ability to operate, so even the crushed egg could advance the renewable transition, but it's hard on the employees (stock option compensation) and investors, both of which Elon is cognizant of.

In the near term, non-monetary dividends are an interesting thought. What about X days-miles-hours-minutes of FSD subscription per share as a dividend? Or Y miles of Tesla Network usage? Like Eve Online, one could even theoretically trade these to others for cash (if permitted). Also makes shorting (naked or or otherwise) more difficult (which is an interesting factor in regards to a dividend trading market) .
 
he's implying the opposite ("be a left to right reflection of this"), and no statement was made about the timeframe
A chart that shows data from 1913 to 2019 is a timeframe.

Because Bitcoin is an investment not a currency at this point. So I saw that Elon said you can buy a Tesla with BTC now. So looked to see the price in BTC and I dont see it. So I can only assume they will convert at the actual time of payment. So again if you cant price a product with BTC then it isnt a currency. Tesla just letting you transfer ownership of an investment they feel will rise faster then they need it. A deflationary currency hurts an economy because it discourages discretionary spending.
 
In the near term, non-monetary dividends are an interesting thought. What about X days-miles-hours-minutes of FSD subscription per share as a dividend? Or Y miles of Tesla Network usage?
Zero value if you have purchased FSD or have unlimited SC (bear in mind, that just because there isn't unlimited SC now, doesn't mean there won't be in the future). It's pretty hard to do non-cash dividends that will treat all investors equally.
 
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Zero value if you have purchased FSD or have unlimited SC (bear in mind, that just because there isn't unlimited SC now, doesn't mean there won't be in the future). It's pretty hard to do non-cash dividends that will treat all investors equally.
Yah, an unusable dividend is pretty equivalent to no dividend (for that individual), which is where the potential marketplace factors in to trade FSD usage for currency outside of Tesla's direct balance sheet (indirect since it reduces subsciption by some amount).

(I meant Tesla Network as in robo-taxi (possibly useful if FSD is not) but SC is another option.
 
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Spent the morning browsing /r/Cryptocurrency, slightly disappointed by the reception.

On one hand, it's definitely great free advertising. The news is occupying spots #2 and #3 on their front page, and people are happy for what Musk is doing to legitimize their beliefs.

On the other hand, they aren't chomping at the bit. The most common comment is around the lines of "Buying a Tesla with BTC in 2021 will be the new buying a pizza with BTC in 2010."
 
Played around with back of the napkin numbers for using autonomous vehicles to deliver food. Just revenue, did not dive into margins. It's pretty obvious that margins would be far higher with autonomous vehicles, especially if small purpose built versions are created (such as an Arcimoto sized vehicle).

CAGR of the food delivery business is 4.3% and cheaper services would no doubt increase that. This isn't a huge business, but 5 billion is 5 billion, particulary if deliveries can be timed along with customer pickups. (car picks up pizza, drops off, and then picks up a nearby rideshare saving time/money)

View attachment 647368


How much of that is flexibility though? Say you like to drive to your vacation home or visit grandma 2 hours away. That's prohibitively expensive and a hassle with an Uber. Won't be nearly the same issue with RTs.

Tesla related - the below relates to short range delivery robots, can cover large part of UK population, but not everywhere. Being slow, not suited so well to hot food (might be insulated), a faster vehicle like a Tesla might make sense for pizzas etc, in which case why not cook them en-route?


The Robots that deliver to us (according to the manufacturers/article) should cost $1-2 to deliver. They have to do 6 deliveries a day to break even says an OLD article from 2019 Europe’s 6-wheeled delivery robots begin invasion of US campuses | Sifted. It takes around an hour from ordering to get the food (grocery, not take-away/ready cooked). Cost of a robot was $5500 or so, the manufacturers expected price to come down to just over $2000

My wife orders (from Starship, not co-op directly), so she knows delivery charges, will ask later - quick web search shows that delivery might be free to the customer above £25, but may have to pay 5p per plastic bag - no idea what co-op is paying. They must have 10-30 robots per shop with a delivery radius above a mile (close to town centre, skewed towards deliveries AWAY from town centre).

They're very cute, kids love them. They ask for help pressing buttons for pedestrian crossings or if they get stuck and need a push (bad roads/pavements) and say "Thank You" after being helped. You can see a few waiting at pedestrian crossings, leaving room for people to get past.

These robots were very popular when they were first introduced, not sure now - we use them as co-op does better quality fruit and delivery is quicker than online supermarkets. They can hold at least 6 bags of shopping.

Over a million deliveries so far. Quite a few locations at USA Universities as well as here in UK A revolution in local delivery.
 
Spent the morning browsing /r/Cryptocurrency, slightly disappointed by the reception.

On one hand, it's definitely great free advertising. The news is occupying spots #2 and #3 on their front page, and people are happy for what Musk is doing to legitimize their beliefs.

On the other hand, they aren't chomping at the bit. The most common comment is around the lines of "Buying a Tesla with BTC in 2021 will be the new buying a pizza with BTC in 2010."
So the same people who say that BTC is a legitimate currency are also proving that it isn’t. You can’t make this stuff up.
 
They gave Taycan owners the option of lowering charging speed from 270kW to 200kW.

If you care more about speed keep it at 270kW.

You care more about long term battery health then lower it to 200kW.
Looks like those of us that pointed out that Porsche's claims regarding fast-charge capability would likely have impact on cell longevity were right.

(And the endless "No, just because it's 800V doesn't magically fix the problem, it's the overall power delivery as compared to pack capacity that's at issue here." back and forth conversations...)
 
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Common sense says the IRS will require you to pay taxes on the bitcoin gains calculated based upon the Bitcoin exchange rate offered by the merchant. It cannot be any other way. Could someone ignore that and perhaps slip through the cracks? Of course! But it would be dumb to try, just like any other blatant tax cheating.
This is pretty obvious. Bitcoin does not become a currency because you can use it to pay for things. If that was all it took Tesla should start accepting Tesla shares as payment for cars. No tax on those shares then. Should take care of any demand problem for a long time.
 
Looks like those of us that pointed out that Porsche's claims regarding fast-charge capability would likely have impact on cell longevity were right.

(And the endless "No, just because it's 800V doesn't magically fix the problem, it's the overall power delivery as compared to pack capacity hat's at issue here." back and forth conversations...)
The point I was making way back was the unveiled charger is not an interesting product. I could build a 300kW in my back yard, what I need is a pack that can accept the charge.