Tesla Unionization

[heltok]

Been thinking what all this means and what will happen. Imo it seems clear that Tesla intends to not unionize and will continue to do business as usual. The Union is trying to give them hell until they agree. Tesla are experienced with dealing with various hells, this will just be Union Hell. It will be stressful for the managers and workers in Sweden, but likely they will get support and make their operation more robust in the end and they will develop deeper team spirit being under attack.

The Unions main tool is called "sympathy strike". Basically the Union will force other companies that have agreed with them to boycott Tesla. What does this actually mean? Tesla will just choose to do business some other way, not unload cars from boats with the unionized unloaders, instead put them on trucks the whole way from Berlin, onto boats, but not unloading. If their unionized cleaning company refuses to clean, they will hire a non-unionized cleaning company. If there is no unionized tesla destination charger service eletricians, they will just inhouse this. Basically every unionized company has agreed to give up business to un-unionized companies. And it's not like these small companies are bathing in money and can just give their competition their business without feeling it. The Union is sending the contra productive message that if you cave and give in, it may cost you the business from non unionized businesses. Another reason to not unionize.

What will happen? This is my theory. I think Tesla has a plan here. The union will try to escalate and find new ways to hurt Tesla. Tesla will work around them. The union will escalate further and Tesla will adapt. Eventually the union will make a mistake. Some union member will cross the line, say something that is illegal, commit some property crime etc. Then Tesla will unleash the full force of their hardcore legal team on the union. A cease and desist letter is sent. The union will claim that they did nothing wrong and it's the Swedish model. Then Tesla will take the union to court for illegal harassment.

 

[EVWatcher]

I'll add one more point:

Unions help with:
- working conditions based on US history (that's usually been safety, but it could it be applied in other places?)
- increases in pay for workers
- better benefits for workers

...they, also, have follow-on benefits for sustainability. What's more important to the success of Tesla's sustainability mission at this point? It'd be having the backing of the laborforce too to buy more cars. I have no doubt that unionizing Tesla, abstractly, will improve demand in an abstract sense. Think of how many people in the UAW would move towards EVs if Tesla were unionized!

Organized labor can do great things and has done so in the past.

The UAW is a terrible organization that is overtly hostile to the companies that the members it represents work for. It destroyed a number of midwestern communities in the 80s. Its leadership has a history of corruption and its “members can’t be paid in stock” attitude is detrimental to both its members and the companies their members work for.

 

[heltok]

IF Metall höjer konfliktersättningen till 130 procent

I morse beslöt IF Metalls förbundsstyrelse att höja konfliktersättningen till de som strejkar från 100 till 130 procent av lönen.Genom höjningen ska de

www.dn.se

This morning, IF Metall's union board decided to increase the conflict compensation to those on strike from 100 to 130 percent of the salary.

Through the increase, the striking members must be compensated for missed benefits such as pension provisions and holiday pay.

- It looks as if the conflict could be long-lasting and then there will be consequences for vacations and pensions. That's why we compensate for that, says Ulf Andersson, finance manager at IF Metall.

The union's statutes state that the conflict compensation must be 80 percent of the salary, but the statutes also give the union board the right to make a decision to increase the compensation.

Before the initial strike at Tesla, the union board decided that the strikers would receive 100 percent of their wages. This morning it was therefore time for a new increase, to 130 percent, which applies from Monday 13 November.

IF Metall has for many years tried to get a collective agreement with Tesla's Swedish subsidiary TM Sweden. Since October 27, 130 mechanics in seven locations have been on strike by IF Metall. On Monday, the parties met for new talks which yielded no results.

From tomorrow, November 10, IF Metall will take another four of Tesla's car workshops out on strike. In addition, several LO unions have initiated or announced blockades and other sympathy measures.

This has happened​

For several years, IF Metall has tried to reach a collective agreement with Tesla's Swedish subsidiary, TM Sweden. It is claimed that those who work at the electric car giant have worse wages, pension provisions and insurance.
October 17: The union announced a strike
October 27: 130 mechanics go on strike at Tesla's workshops in seven locations. Reports show that not everyone quits behind the conflict but continues to work.
November 1: The parties resume talks, initiated by mediator Kurt Eriksson. The result is that negotiations will continue on November 6.
November 3: The conflict is extended to include jobs with Tesla cars at 17 workshops that also service other car brands.
November 6: New, fruitless, talks between IF Metall and TM Sweden.
November 7: The transport union's blockade of four Swedish ports begins. Transport also places a notice to stop unloading in all Swedish ports from 17 November.
The Real Estate Employees' Union, the Electricians and the Swedish Port Workers' Union also put in a notice.
November 8: Seko announces that it intends to stop letters and packages to Tesla from November 20.
November 10: Another four car workshops may be taken out on strike.

 

[betstarship]

Organized labor can do great things and has done so in the past.

The UAW is a terrible organization that is overtly hostile to the companies that the members it represents work for. It destroyed a number of midwestern communities in the 80s. Its leadership has a history of corruption and its “members can’t be paid in stock” attitude is detrimental to both its members and the companies their members work for.

Fair! Glad to hear the discussion about the UAW not being a good organization nowadays, though if EV's are entirely new as a technology and product...I'm surprised a new type of union (especially, maybe, around solar) doesn't manifest up over time.

 

[Krugerrand]

It's about time, tbh. TSLA is in the S&P 500, Elon Musk's CEO compensation plan is complete, Tesla's sustainability mission is copy and pasting factories and vehicles, and everything after that probably needs to be slowed down or regulated even from what Elon is saying.

To have Elon regulate himself and call that out through his words and actions is pretty remarkable of a human and, especially CEO, trait. If Tesla does get unionized now (compared to when it was practically a startup 3x over until reaching the S&P 500), I think it's going to do a lot more good than bad now compared to before.

P.S. I expect many downvotes for this post, but this my honest-to-goodness reaction.

The UAW has less than 400,000 members; down from a high of over 3,000,000. The majority of current members aren’t even auto workers. Think about that for more than 5 seconds.

THEN, maybe do a little google search about UAW corruption and what union leaders spent members money on - for YEARS.

The very second Tesla employees think being members of THAT organization is better than they have now is the very second I’m out and expect Tesla to start going backwards on all levels; higher costs across the board, loss of efficiencies, loss of innovation, slowing of all technological advancements, dwindling free cash flow, significantly lower GMs etc…

 

[heltok]

Regaring unionization in Sweden:

Been thinking what all this means and what will happen. Imo it seems clear that Tesla intends to not unionize and will continue to do business as usual. The Union is trying to give them hell until they agree. Tesla are experienced with dealing with various hells, this will just be Union Hell. It will be stressful for the managers and workers in Sweden, but likely they will get support and make their operation more robust in the end and they will develop deeper team spirit being under attack.

The Unions main tool is called "sympathy strike". Basically the Union will force other companies that have agreed with them to boycott Tesla. What does this actually mean? Tesla will just choose to do business some other way, not unload cars from boats with the unionized unloaders, instead put them on trucks the whole way from Berlin, onto boats, but not unloading. If their unionized cleaning company refuses to clean, they will hire a non-unionized cleaning company. If there is no unionized tesla destination charger service eletricians, they will just inhouse this. Basically every unionized company has agreed to give up business to un-unionized companies. And it's not like these small companies are bathing in money and can just give their competition their business without feeling it. The Union is sending the contra productive message that if you cave and give in, it may cost you the business from non unionized businesses. Another reason to not unionize.

What will happen? This is my theory. I think Tesla has a plan here. The union will try to escalate and find new ways to hurt Tesla. Tesla will work around them. The union will escalate further and Tesla will adapt. Eventually the union will make a mistake. Some union member will cross the line, say something that is illegal, commit some property crime etc. Then Tesla will unleash the full force of their hardcore legal team on the union. A cease and desist letter is sent. The union will claim that they did nothing wrong and it's the Swedish model. Then Tesla will take the union to court for illegal harassment.

 

[betstarship]

The UAW has less than 400,000 members; down from a high of over 3,000,000. The majority of current members aren’t even auto workers. Think about that for more than 5 seconds.

THEN, maybe do a little google search about UAW corruption and what union leaders spent members money on - for YEARS.

The very second Tesla employees think being members of THAT organization is better than they have now is the very second I’m out and expect Tesla to start going backwards on all levels; higher costs across the board, loss of efficiencies, loss of innovation, slowing of all technological advancements, dwindling free cash flow, significantly lower GMs etc…

So, if the UAW isn't sustainability friendly, then why hasn't a sustainability-ecosystem-friendly union be created now? is it never possible in the future?

 

[jerry33]

I understand where you're coming from, though that leaves me to ponder:

why does unionization need to be rooted from negative circumstances? Why isn't it allowed to be a value add?



how?

Basically because union workers work for the union boss who wants the most people possible so there are more union dues collected.

 

[BioSehnsucht]

Maybe the 5D chess move would be to come out with a "Union Agreement" that meets the intent of the weird Sweden "union agreement" situation (which is apparently relatively unique in that "all" companies have agreements that aren't like those here and they basically replace the labor laws most other places have, and might not do any of the regular union stuff, depending).

First, set it up so that it basically provides the minimums to satisfy the weird Sweden union issue where they have union agreements instead of labor laws, by basically coming up with some least common denominator of employee "rights" between their EU/US/China/etc employees, adding on whatever they can/want to so it isn't just the LCD but also isn't trying to apply the likely conflicting combination of all locations together, and codifying this, so that places like Sweden have the equivalent of sane labor laws.

Second, include in the "rights" various things such that a theoretical future successful UAW unionization effort can't "take away" various "rights" such as:
a) Stock purchase plans and any similar compensation options
b) The "right" to "individual negotiation" i.e. normal non-union negotiation of salary and such, if you want it (so a future unionization can't drag unwilling employees into whatever they decree)
c) The "right" to "career mobility" i.e. normal non-union ability to move around to different positions, even if a union might try to block this in the future
d) Some sort of cap of theoretical union dues perhaps? Not sure how to phrase this.
e) etc ...

Third, clearly state that any future collective bargaining attempts that attempt to "take away" these "rights" would be summarily refused without further review.

The idea being to satisfy the weird Sweden situation, make a corporate statement that Tesla officially won't be a jerk (by guaranteeing sane labor law equivalents even where they don't exist, etc), and head off any UAW shenanigans by basically saying go ahead, unionize, but at most you're going to be negotiating for only the people who want you to, as opposed to everyone after you convince an initial majority to let you in regardless of whether they still want it, and with capped dues you're not going to be able to leech so much of the employees salary, so hopefully shenanigans are less profitable to even begin.

The trick would be to word things to both satisfy the Sweden union situation and not make it sound like Tesla is ripe for a UAW assault.

 

[EVWatcher]

So, if the UAW isn't sustainability friendly, then why hasn't a sustainability-ecosystem-friendly union be created now? is it never possible in the future?

Supply and demand.

Workers at Tesla don’t demand a union so one doesn’t form. If there was a need it would happen.

As it is the UAW employs mafia tactics rather than democratic ones.

 

[betstarship]

Supply and demand.

Workers at Tesla don’t demand a union so one doesn’t form. If there was a need it would happen.

As it is the UAW employs mafia tactics rather than democratic ones.

Right and ...

So, if the UAW isn't sustainability friendly, then why hasn't a sustainability-ecosystem-friendly union be created now? is it never possible in the future?

About 10% of solar jobs [1] are union right now. Solar has been around for decades, but is finding itself to be in a labor boon now compared to anytime in the past.

[1] The Solar Industry Gained Jobs Last Year. But Are Those Good Jobs, and Could They Be Better? - Inside Climate News

 

[scaesare]

I understand where you're coming from, though that leaves me to ponder:

why does unionization need to be rooted from negative circumstances? Why isn't it allowed to be a value add?

Your stance seems to be supplying a solution where a problem, does not demonstrably exist.

And the issues unions have caused is well understood,

how?

Saying "by conceding to unions we can avoid them boycotting our product" is the tone I get. Acquiescing to a group's self-serving demands[1] in order for them to buy a product feel very different than trying to appeal to a group based on product feature, etc....

[1] As opposed to "general societal reasons", such as avoiding child labor in some country, etc...

 

[betstarship]

Your stance seems to be supplying a solution where a problem, does not demonstrably exist.

And the issues unions have caused is well understood,




Saying "by conceding to unions we can avoid them boycotting our product" is the tone I get. Acquiescing to a group's self-serving demands[1] in order for them to buy a product feel very different than trying to appeal to a group based on product feature, etc....

[1] As opposed to "general societal reasons", such as avoiding child labor in some country, etc...

My problem as a shareholder of TSLA in the low 7 digits (right now):

...what helps the planet and society move to sustainability quicker?

The macro is blowing up around Tesla. It's just a company. I'm positing that stabilizing the labor force in the sustainability sector is a good thing and questioning the logic of thinking labor unions are bad 100% (edit: ) across all phases of a businesses lifecycle.

 

[Blue horseshoe]

Pages of union talk just going in circles.....

 

[scaesare]

My problem as a shareholder of TSLA in the low 7 digits (right now):

...what helps the planet and society move to sustainability quicker?

I'd argue it's not the pace of production an innovation of the traditional auto plant?

Are unions the sole cause of that? Certainly not,

Are they contributors? I'd bet most would agree: yes.

The macro is blowing up around Tesla. It's just a company. I'm positing that stabilizing the labor force in the sustainability sector is a good thing and questioning the logic of thinking labor unions are bad 100%.

What "unstable workforce" problems is Tesla having that you can point to? (The is the 2nd or third time I've asked for some references to the issues you imply exist... nothing so far, yet I've answered your questions of me...)

(on edit: If this continues to go around like this, I'll move on...)

 

[betstarship]

Pages of union talk just going in circles.....

You might see circles, but I see people sharing the following in this thread about the union talk:

- suggesting tesla strategy in regards to the UAW
- UAW strategy on how to counteract against the sustainability ecosystem that is a direct competitor to it
- questioning the logic that unions are inherently a bad thing
- questioning my logic for bringing up the topic and stress testing whether it was a good post
- etc.

 

[betstarship]

I'd argue it's not the pace of production an innovation of the traditional auto plant?

Are unions the sole cause of that? Certainly not,

Are they contributors? I'd bet most would agree: yes.



What "unstable workforce" problems is Tesla having that you can point to? (The is the 2nd or third time I've asked for some references to the issues you imply exist... nothing so far, yet I've answered your questions of me...)

You're asking for the negative of what I'm saying. I'm trying to assert that unions are value adds in some respects and a tool to manage labor-forces. On the other hand, it sounds to me like your posts imply that unions are 100% bad. If the solar industry, which is far reaching and larger than the EV industry is 10% adoption towards unions (which I linked to btw) now, then what is the UAW?

Are they pro-sustainability or anti-sustainability? If they go against the mission of Tesla entirely, then I think this board ought to assess whether its unions that are bad or is it just the UAW and make the separation.

 

[Fred42]

I have no doubt that unionizing Tesla, abstractly, will improve demand in an abstract sense. Think of how many people in the UAW would move towards EVs if Tesla were unionized!

Few buyers care whether the manufacturer is unionized. Toyota and other Japanese companies have done very well in the US with their US manufactured cars, and their factories are non-union.

 

[AndrewZ]

The push for unionization at Tesla would happen if production is throttled further, through factory slowdowns / shutdowns / retooling, and it starts impacting worker's bottom lines -- I would look at that as the biggest risk.

Tesla carries very low inventory compared to the industry standard and I don't think has any intention of growing that inventory to 60-90 days because it would mean bad things for cash flow, so if the macro situation doesn't improve and the angle instead is to reduce output and worker hours to match demand, that is when the union would look to attack.


Feels like not so long ago that people were scoffing at the mere idea of union impacts to Tesla either direct or indirect, so I would suggest that past performance (lack of unionization) could but may not be indicative of future results.

 

[Fred42]

My guess this is what is driving the stock lower not the HSBC rating.

Biden backs UAW efforts to unionize Tesla, Toyota

U.S. President Joe Biden said he supports the United Auto Workers' efforts to unionize carmakers Tesla and Toyota, speaking to reporters as he departed for a meeting with the UAW president in Illinois later on Thursday.

finance.yahoo.com

Biden's comment on unionization has little practical effect. It's up to the UAW to get enough worker signatures for a vote, and it's up to the workers to vote on whether they want a union.

Toyota did the smart thing with the wage increases. Hopefully Tesla is keeping up with wages.