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Tesla YANKED FSD option without notice - Class Action lawsuit? Any Lawyers here? [Resolved]

Discussion in 'Model S' started by MS-Alec, Jan 31, 2020.

  1. bhwithun

    bhwithun New Member

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    This is a case of unequal expectations.

    Two cases for comparison...

    One. I have free supercharging for life... Unless I sell my car. A prospective buyer might see my free supercharging and think that they are acquiring my supercharging status along with the vehicle that they are buying. They would be incorrect. The supercharging agreement is between me and Tesla, and does not transfer. That is stated somewhere (?). I think any reasonable person would understand this.

    Two. I sell my phone which has an unlimited data plan. The prospective buyer may think that they, too, will be getting an unlimited data plan by merely purchasing the phone. They would be incorrect. I think any reasonable person would understand this.

    The operation of FSD is dependent upon Tesla's servers. It's not like a piece of hardware that is independent. The vehicle uses remote computation and data and cellular resources from Tesla for FSD.

    Tesla is under no obligation to expend these resources to a customer without an agreement/purchase. Similar to how Verizon is under no obligation to Grant unlimited data to someone who purchases my phone.

    That's how I see it. I acknowledge that others see it differently.
     
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  2. Akikiki

    Akikiki A'-Lo-HA ! y'all

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    @Tam, that's a very insightful observation. And likely more accurate than my guess.

    When I purchased my '17 S, I paid for EAP and FSD. I believe its morphed into AP and FSD with a more current update since I bought it. I don't know which one it is, but I am getting the same version updates that 2018, '18 and '20 are getting. Of course because I have AP 2.0 HW, I am not seeing the same features that AP 2.5 gets. But I believe the EAP is now AP.

    But let's go back and talk about the Auction house Tesla. I think there's parts of the story that Jalopnik didn't research and should have before they stirred this pot.

    1. They should/could have connected the dots to the original owner/first owner and verified that owner paid for EAP/FSD or had it on trial/test. Maybe it is/was one of the TMC OPs that have posted about their similar experiences. They could promise not to reveal which, but could at least checked their story against their truth about this car.

    2. I think this was an unfortunate series of disassociated events that caused that last owner to lose AP/FSD. Here's how. He reported (via the Jalopnik) that AP/FSD disappeared as a result of a Dec OTA update. That does not sound like someone at Tesla purposely drilled down into the history of that car and singled it out to disable AP/FSD because someone had it after Tesla sold it. Because it was associated with an OTA update, I think that OTA has a subroutine in the software that compared the feature codes for each car against a database of paid for or cars without paid for AP/FSD and when it found one that was not paid for/trial, it flipped a software switch and disabled it. I recall reading just yesterday on the TM forum of someone that was complaining their 3 had AP/FSD for more than a year and suddenly after the same Dec update, his AP/FSD was gone/not working. So since a couple of owners have stated the loss was triggered by OTA, seems to me it was an automated process. So the innocent last owner was simply wrong place in ownership timeline to be impacted.

    The person at Tesla that was selecting or keypunching VINs into a database or interfacing the subroutine to existing list of AP/FSD trial/permanent cars probably didn't even know what the consequences were while working. Maybe doesn't even know this happened.

    I wonder how many Tesla owners did not pay for FSD and it was enabled for months/years and they didn't use it, ignored it, didn't care and now that its disabled will not miss it or notice its gone. If you are one of these owners, will you please hold up your hand? LOL.

    I wonder, had the used car dealer or the auction house still owned this car would we have heard about the loss of AP/FSD on that car? Probably not. Its even unlikely that while owned by the auction house or used car dealer that it was connected to WiFi. I don't recall seeing how long the last owner had it before that Dec OTA changed his car, but he's just unlucky.

    We heard about this because of the Jalopnik because of a private owner? Would it have been noticed or skipped if it was owned by the used car dealer?

    I think it was is unfortunate these events collided like they did in a negative way. Its not a irreversible big deal though. Tesla is not losing millions if they just re-enable the software on this car or for that matter on others that lost it after the OTA update. I think they should simply turn it back on. I believe they will when it finally comes visible to those in a position to do so.
     
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  3. Battpower

    Battpower Supporting Member

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    #423 Battpower, Feb 8, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2020
    Your view of a service running on Tesla servers is fine and a subscription model for such features could have some benefits, but does not match up with Tesla's own view that FSD is irrevocably linked to a specific VIN once a car is sold.

    Also, following your approach of having paid a one off price (since no mention of recurrent fees) then FSD would remain perpetually with the purchaser. (Which at present is not the case).

    Bad timing, disorganised internal procedures, Double-dipping, poor communication, lack of customer focus / empathy, greed, poor judgement. However you look at it I don't see an upside for Tesla's reputation especially amongst its existing owner base.

    Also, I am struggling to see the logic behind worrying about if or why the OP's car is / was entitled to have eap / FSD on it BASED ON THE CAR'S HISTORY once he (or the dealer) bought it. All that matters is that Tesla released the car for sale at auction with FSD enabled and no disclosure to the contrary. This is by Tesla's own admission.

    I nearly purchased a (UK) CPO 100D with FSD. For reasons that don't matter here, I did not go through with that purchase. The same car is now for sale just weeks later for several thousand less than originally listed. Who is to say what the 'true' value of that car is, and once it sells, who is to say if FSD was intentionally included or liable to be 'audited away' at some future date? Even if you accept that by some distorted way of framing this, Tesla can strip features that have already been sold on the same vehicle, then they must do so before selling it! Doesn't matter who they sell it to, but especially at auction you get what you see unless clearly specified to the contrary in advance.
     
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  4. MP3Mike

    MP3Mike Well-Known Member

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    It was still at the used car dealer when FSD was removed. The dealer installed the update before they completed the sale. And the dealer disclosed to the OP that FSD was gone before he took possession of it, but they both assumed that it was just a mistake.

    None. The feature was gone before he took possession of the car.

    So yeah, it is possible that Tesla made the change to the configuration while it was in their possession but the change didn't take until the next update was installed.

    It is obvious to me that the OP learned how people would react in this thread and that he organized/manipulated the information he shared with Jalopnik to make his case sound better.
     
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  5. dannycamps

    dannycamps Member

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    Tesla has been on record stating that the FSD package is tied to the VIN of the car - not the owner. If it was the other way around e.g. tied to the owner, that would mean that if I sold my Tesla and bought another one, I should be able to carry my FSD service to my new car without having to pay for it.

    To use your analogy, if you sell your phone (which has an unlimited plan) and buy a new phone, your new phone would still have an unlimited plan because the plan is tied to you and not the phone.

    Where Tesla has it wrong is they are trying to have it both ways and not being clear on it. They cannot say the FSD license is valid for the owner and not allow the owner to transfer their license to a new car. Likewise, they can't say the FSD license is valid for the car and not allow it to be transferred with the car to a new owner. What they are trying to do is say the license is valid for the car but once the car changes hands, the license is null and void.

    Software licenses generally work either by the user or by the seat meaning the license can either be used by the person who is it purchased for only (regardless of the machine the user is using it at) or it can be applied to anyone who uses the machine it is purchased for respectively.
     
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  6. ucmndd

    ucmndd Active Member

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    Your interpretation suggests a subscription model for FSD that doesn’t exist nor has ever been communicated to owners.

    As stupid and nearsighted as it is, I don’t dispute their right to do it to cars that run through them. I do dispute their right to do it AFTER a subsequent sale, due to incompetence, malice, or otherwise.
     
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  7. Akikiki

    Akikiki A'-Lo-HA ! y'all

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    Good post. Enjoyed this read. But let's dissect it a little.

    One. Supercharging - your car. Are you certain it does not transfer? How do you know it will not transfer? Its not your life that Supercharging for life was assigned to - its the car. We know that some cars that had FUSC lost it. But I think the common denominator that has been overlooked was when those cars passed through a non-Tesla car dealer/used car dealer. Cars with FUSC that passed via private owners did not lose FUSC. During the days that Tesla had a CPO program, cars traded in as 40KW were changed to 60KW and sold again. And it appears that most included FUSC when sold as a 60. You may not recall, but early 60's were Supercharger capable but not enabled unless the owner paid $2,000 at purchase or $2500 later. When Tesla sold those 60's as CPOs, Supercharging was enabled as FUSC. That was giving them $2,000 in added value.

    Two. Your phone. Are you sure your unlimited data plan is assigned to your phone and not your account/cell phone number? I had unlimited data for $30 on my at&t account during the time I had a iPhone 2, 3, 4, and 5. I didn't want to risk losing that plan, so when I bought another phone, I avoided signing a contract by just buying a new phone on ebay and swapping the SIM. I didn't abuse the data. I only used 3-4 gig a month. They bumped the plan up to $35 then $40, then $50 and I quit them. I used different phones with the same unlimited plan. That's generally the way that works. But of course you may have been with a carrier that did it different.

    "Similar to how Verizon is under no obligation to Grant unlimited data to someone who purchases my phone.". If you sold your phone and the buyer took over responsibility for your account and phone number, Verizon might not know or might not care. Would they be permitted to continue using your unlimited data plan? I think so, even though I would not do it that way myself. But you kept your account and phone number, correct?

    Sell your FUSC Tesla and someone takes over your Tesla account and just changes their name inside, Tesla might not know or care. Even though we have heard of people losing FUSC when they buy a Tesla, we also still hear of people buying a used Tesla and NOT losing FUSC. So there's some thing that separates these two purchases that we have not spotted - yet.
     
  8. Battpower

    Battpower Supporting Member

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    Both the dealer and Tesla are in agreement that this car had eap / FSD when sold to the dealer. The dealer agrees he passed on the same representation to the OP who bought the car based on that. Tesla's own document shows they removed the feature after they sold the car.

    Not sure much manipulation is needed or took place. Just more clarity maybe as more information became available.
     
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  9. Akikiki

    Akikiki A'-Lo-HA ! y'all

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    I believe Tesla will eventually cave to our desire to "move" the license to another Tesla if we buy another and can prove to be the last owner via the VIN of the car that had the license. In other words, we have to still own the first car to transfer the license to the new Tesla. I think also that we have to make it known to Tesla that we want to it both ways. If we paid for it, we should be able to transfer it to another Tesla we own. We should not be able to get a refund or sell it to someone else. But we should be able to move it from one Tesla we own or trade in to another.

    However, it we don't care or are selling the old car to someone and its part of "the deal" we lose the right to take the license to the new car.
    The semantics of how it's done will be worked out.

    In the early days, I had 60 with Extended warranty and Extended Service agreement. I ordered a new P95. I found a Tesla senior executive and emailed him requesting that he approve me moving my extended warranty and extended service agreement to the new car. (Still have the email :) too). He approved it and it happened. Today - forget it, you can't get that type of attention to something as insignificant to a senior executive as a $4,000 credit and transfer. (Yep, extended warranty and service plan were only $4,000 total back then.
     
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  10. Battpower

    Battpower Supporting Member

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    That covers all the bases going forwards and seems to match Tesla's approach of wanting it both ways too - FSD fixed to VIN but also can be removed by them.
     
  11. Battpower

    Battpower Supporting Member

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    They removed FSD after they sold it at auction, by their own correspondence. They can do what they like with it if and while it's their property, but not after it's sold (at auction to the dealer).
     
  12. thedm96

    thedm96 Member

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    #432 thedm96, Feb 8, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2020
    I disagree with the phone analogy for the following two reasons:

    1) FSD purchase is an unrealized value like a kickstarter campaign. By the time you have used your phone and sold it you would have extracted the value out of both the hardware and the mostly finished software providing the services. You enter into a contract with known expectations.

    FSD is a promise of things to come and as such should transfer with the individual until its value
    has been realized. Summon alone is NOT worth 7k. FSD is a novelty in it's current incarnation.

    2) apples and oranges on costs. you are talking about a cell phone that is a fraction of the cost of a vehicle. Many people have (smart or not) financed in FSD for 4-7 years with their car loan and will even pay more on interest charges, but see little value from it for the life of their car. 7k might be just a rounding error for people spending 100k+ for an S/X but is quite a stretch for those shopping for a Model 3/Y.

    Because FSD is half baked, Tesla needs to be liberal with this license right now instead of alienating customers in what looks like a flagrant cash grab.
     
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  13. MS-Alec

    MS-Alec Member

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    All, once again - Thank you all for your support and sympathy!
    A couple of hours ago I have got a call from Elon! Just joking! It was a customer experience rep, she apologized for my troubles, told me that Tesla has restored all missed options cited a miscommunication and it was not intentionally!
    I am out of town and away from my car till tomorrow and once back will confirm if at least EAP was restored. I will report back.
     
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  14. Akikiki

    Akikiki A'-Lo-HA ! y'all

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    Merely Wonderful !! I personally was confident Tesla would do the right thing, whether it was beneficial to them or not.

    Glad its working out for you Alec.

    I recommend you reach out to Jalopnik.
     
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  15. dannycamps

    dannycamps Member

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    That's great to hear. If in fact all was restored, it would be some nice due-diligence on your part to reach back out to Jalopnik et al and let them know Tesla made the situation right.

    Also - how funny would it be if Elon actually did call you :) ?
     
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  16. ucmndd

    ucmndd Active Member

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    Awesome news. I’m glad they’re doing the right thing. I sincerely hope they figure out as a company how to “do the right thing” BEFORE things hit the media.
     
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  17. FlatSix911

    FlatSix911 Porsche 918 Hybrid

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    Well done! :cool:
     
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  18. Tam

    Tam Well-Known Member

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    I gave up on miracles a long time ago but this story has restored my faith in miracles again. Thank you!
     
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  19. MIT_S60

    MIT_S60 Member

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    I don't know, I find it kind of pathetic (on Tesla, not on OP) that he had to resort to blasting Tesla online in a negative light for them to do anything... Given his previous interactions, it clearly WAS intentional...
     
  20. Battpower

    Battpower Supporting Member

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    #440 Battpower, Feb 8, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2020
    That's great to hear. More proof, if any were needed, that Tesla does things differently! Quite often they do the best things in the worst way. If all is back as it should be, certainly good to make sure Jalopnik covers the happy ending.

    Maybe Tesla will consider the value of providing a more orthodox route to address such problems in future. A lot of it comes down to management structure, authority and delegation. (Both for the issue happening in the first place and the lack of early resolution). That's not something even the longest established businesses get right, so I can't say I think Tesla is especially bad, but they are a business of extremes!
     

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