That's the 2017 update, here's the 2018 update:
New Data Show Electric Vehicles Continue to Get Cleaner
Oh, and lithium is refined in evaporation pools, really clean process.
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That's the 2017 update, here's the 2018 update:
New Data Show Electric Vehicles Continue to Get Cleaner
Oh, and lithium is refined in evaporation pools, really clean process.
RobStark
Well-Known Member
Eastern Washington State was the center of US aluminum smelting for decades because of the cheap hydro power. Foreign competition pushed most of the smelters out of business. In the last couple of years the sites of the aluminum plants have been taken over by a different type of mining industry: crypto currency.
And a mass extinction. All or virtually all of the oil is from the Permian Extinction, which was one of the biggest extinction events in world history. Much bigger than the extinction of the dinosaurs.
And for what it's worth, Tesla uses very little cobalt, will use even less (Elon says zero),
and from what I understand these minerals are from US mines.
It is true that you have horrible working conditions in mines in Africa, which is a serious
violation of human rights. So this is a real problem that should be tackled seriously.
Just don't accept these kind of accusations from oil workers: the history of violations for oil (climate change, wars, tumors, etc.) there is infinite.
and from what I understand these minerals are from US mines.
It is true that you have horrible working conditions in mines in Africa, which is a serious
violation of human rights. So this is a real problem that should be tackled seriously.
Just don't accept these kind of accusations from oil workers: the history of violations for oil (climate change, wars, tumors, etc.) there is infinite.
If you study the history of oil at all a significant amount of it was developed in very difficult places and it badly distorted the politics of some of those places. I some corners of the world it's still distorting the politics.
A lot of people and environments have been hurt and exploited getting the oil out of the ground too.
Most people don't think of it that way, but oil exploration and production is a form of mining and historically mining is very rough on the people who do it. Most of oil production is done with machines and only a few maintenance workers are needed for the production part, but there is a whole industry in exploration and production of oil.
As for cobalt, the largest deposits are in the Congo, but there are some decent deposits in other places less politically sensitive. I found it interesting that Barack Obama worked on opening up Cuba just after it looked like electric cars with li-ion batteries were going to be a big thing. Cuba has large cobalt deposits and their mines have been mostly shut in since the 1950s. Their deposits are not as played out as some other locations and the mining infrastructure is still there, it just needs to be rehabbed.
A lot of people and environments have been hurt and exploited getting the oil out of the ground too.
Most people don't think of it that way, but oil exploration and production is a form of mining and historically mining is very rough on the people who do it. Most of oil production is done with machines and only a few maintenance workers are needed for the production part, but there is a whole industry in exploration and production of oil.
As for cobalt, the largest deposits are in the Congo, but there are some decent deposits in other places less politically sensitive. I found it interesting that Barack Obama worked on opening up Cuba just after it looked like electric cars with li-ion batteries were going to be a big thing. Cuba has large cobalt deposits and their mines have been mostly shut in since the 1950s. Their deposits are not as played out as some other locations and the mining infrastructure is still there, it just needs to be rehabbed.
Cobalt is typically found in Nickel ores a lot of the time. Canada has a lot of Nickel in Sudbury thanks to a large meteor strike back in the day I believe, and I think there is still some Nickel mining in Cuba as I heard Canada has an agreement with Cuba to smelt Nickel concentrate for them.
RobStark
Well-Known Member
RobStark
Well-Known Member
jhm
Well-Known Member
It would be interesting to know where this 694kt supply fits into this curve both in terms annual production and cost per tonne:
From Lithium Prices To Stay High To 2024–UBS
RobStark
Well-Known Member
jhm
Well-Known Member
That looks like there is going to be a lithium glut as more of those resources are tapped. Lithium is a very light element (3 on the periodic table). A ton of lithium is a lot of lithium and li-ion batteries don't need much.
Based on this discussion, Tesla was using about 7Kg of lithium per pack with the 85KWH battery
What is the content of pure lithium (e.g. kg/kWh) in Li-ion...
The OP estimated that worked out to about 160 Wh/kg. The output of the GF is currently around 20 GWH/Yr. If the lithium usage is the same, that about 125 Kt/yr of lithium usage (metric tonnes). The US known reserves alone can supply that level of need for 54 years. World supply is enough for 427 years production at the current GF factory rate.
Unlike fossil fuels, the lithium isn't getting burned up and will be recycled (in most cases) when the battery wears out. If we go to 10X the current GF production rate, we still have 42 years supply of battery production and the market is going to saturate at some point and production of new cells will drop to maintenance levels with a lot of the materials coming from recycling.
And that estimate is just based on current known world reserves. There is almost certainly new supplies that will be discovered.
Solid state batteries will have a different chemistry mix and lithium demand per cell might go up. But those cells will be more energy dense, so the amount per KWH may not change much.
Based on this discussion, Tesla was using about 7Kg of lithium per pack with the 85KWH battery
What is the content of pure lithium (e.g. kg/kWh) in Li-ion...
The OP estimated that worked out to about 160 Wh/kg. The output of the GF is currently around 20 GWH/Yr. If the lithium usage is the same, that about 125 Kt/yr of lithium usage (metric tonnes). The US known reserves alone can supply that level of need for 54 years. World supply is enough for 427 years production at the current GF factory rate.
Unlike fossil fuels, the lithium isn't getting burned up and will be recycled (in most cases) when the battery wears out. If we go to 10X the current GF production rate, we still have 42 years supply of battery production and the market is going to saturate at some point and production of new cells will drop to maintenance levels with a lot of the materials coming from recycling.
And that estimate is just based on current known world reserves. There is almost certainly new supplies that will be discovered.
Solid state batteries will have a different chemistry mix and lithium demand per cell might go up. But those cells will be more energy dense, so the amount per KWH may not change much.
RobStark
Well-Known Member
Plummeting cobalt price takes toll on Democratic Republic of Congo
Subscribe to read | Financial Times
Subscribe to read | Financial Times
RobStark
Well-Known Member
Wood Mackenzie via Forbes
Can Metals Supply Keep Up With Electric Vehicle Demand?
Despite strong growth in demand on the horizon, there’s not yet much for investors to get excited about. Meeting demand is not a challenge for key metals at present. In many cases supply is chasing demand. Increase electric vehicle penetration to 10% and above, and it is a different matter altogether. Are the current falling prices and weak sentiment setting the world up for a crunch down the road?
Unless battery technology can be developed, tested, commercialised, manufactured and integrated into EVs and their supply chains faster than ever before, it will be impossible for many EV targets and ICE (internal combustion engine) bans to be achieved – posing issues for current EV adoption rate projections.
Can Metals Supply Keep Up With Electric Vehicle Demand?
Despite strong growth in demand on the horizon, there’s not yet much for investors to get excited about. Meeting demand is not a challenge for key metals at present. In many cases supply is chasing demand. Increase electric vehicle penetration to 10% and above, and it is a different matter altogether. Are the current falling prices and weak sentiment setting the world up for a crunch down the road?
Unless battery technology can be developed, tested, commercialised, manufactured and integrated into EVs and their supply chains faster than ever before, it will be impossible for many EV targets and ICE (internal combustion engine) bans to be achieved – posing issues for current EV adoption rate projections.
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