Update: Model X has a single charger, but only 48A capable

[Lloyd]

Tesla has a ton of use data on how charging is actually done. For example, they can probably look at how often high amp AC charging is done where the car sits connected for hours afterwards.

Yes, but their data will not show the NEED when the time arises. Example: I have an 80 amp HPWC, but I don't use it for my daily charging. I normally charge at about 30 amps from a wall plug and the HPC. I only use the HPWC when I NEED to get some charge more quickly, or for traveling Tesla friends :smile:. Their data will show that I charge 30 amps 98% of the time, and 80 amps 2% of the time, but it is the 2% that is most important!

 

[ohmman]

Tesla has a ton of use data on how charging is actually done. For example, they can probably look at how often high amp AC charging is done where the car sits connected for hours afterwards.

This is completely true. However, this data misses something very important - the desire of the owner to charge more quickly at times, and the relative importance of those events. My MS, with a dual charger, doesn't often get more than 40 miles a day on it - so it sits plugged in from 7pm-7am but charges for less than an hour. However, there have been times that my extra charger has come in extremely useful, and was used.

There are too many external confounding variables to allow Tesla to make an inference from the charging data they have available.

Edit -- Lloyd and I cross-posted. Pretty identical sentiments, too!

 

[AlMc]

Yes, but their data will not show the NEED when the time arises. Example: I have an 80 amp HPWC, but I don't use it for my daily charging. I normally charge at about 30 amps from a wall plug and the HPC. I only use the HPWC when I NEED to get some charge more quickly, or for traveling Tesla friends :smile:. Their data will show that I charge 30 amps 98% of the time, and 80 amps 2% of the time, but it is the 2% that is most important!

^^This describes my home set up and the way I use the HPWC vs Nema 10-50 exactly.

 

[qwk]

Sounds like the engineers are making product design decisions. This is the program manager saying, wups, the engineers changed things. While I have great respect for engineers (I am one), product design decisions should not be left entirely in their hands. They do silly things like look at a chart of number of people who have 80A charging, and conclude it isn't an important feature. Product design decisions should be made in conjunction with product managers who have a marketing viewpoint. Of course, most engineers think marketing people have the utility of pond scum, but, frankly, they are wrong. Yet more indications that Tesla isn't exactly a well run company...

I think that the main problem is not that Engineers are making these decisions, but Engineers that don't use the product on a daily basis are making these decisions. Send the design team on a trip on state highways that are not located in California, and you can bet that the car charger won't be a crippled version.

 

[Gwgan]

Traveling Canadians? What's your experience? Is it most of the Suncountry Highway 90A EVSE? Wouldn't one want to charge as fast as possible when traveling?

 

[FlasherZ]

Sounds like the engineers are making product design decisions.

In a lot of tech companies, product marketing sits within the engineering organization. So "engineering" can also mean product marketing.

- - - Updated - - -

Okay, *now* is time for pure speculation: just as the Model S went through a couple of charger revisions, I wouldn't be surprised if the Model X did so. And I wouldn't rule out, further down the road, seeing an increase in charging current as a result. That said, unless this was *the* deal-breaker for you, I wouldn't delay my Model X because there's no commitment to doing so.

 

[qwk]

Okay, *now* is time for pure speculation: just as the Model S went through a couple of charger revisions, I wouldn't be surprised if the Model X did so. And I wouldn't rule out, further down the road, seeing an increase in charging current as a result. That said, unless this was *the* deal-breaker for you, I wouldn't delay my Model X because there's no commitment to doing so.

I really doubt this, as the HPWC has a hard time charging at 20kw without heat issues. They could also redesign the charging connectors, but quality costs money, and it seems like that is not the Tesla way.

 

[FlatSix911]

Originally Posted by vangogh
Tesla Charging program manager:

Thank you for reaching out. I apologize, our engineering has recently clarified their plans for Model X charging capability,
the 72 amp on-board charger is no longer accurate. I am now being told that the on-board charger capability of Model X will be max 48 amps.

When connected to a NEMA 14-50, Model X will use its on-board charger to charge at approximately 25 miles/hour.
Higher amperage Wall Connectors (such as those found at our Destination Charging locations) will provide a recharge speed of approximately 30 miles per hour.

Walter F | Charging Installation Program Manager
45500 Fremont Boulevard | Fremont, CA 94538

The first word about charging appeared 3-Aug-2015 in the other thread, titled at the time "Model X has single 60A charger", which had "[rumor]" added to it.
While a couple of rumors about 72A were swirling, it wasn't until 29-Sep-2015 that Tesla confirmed a plan of single, 72A charger.

Anyone who has placed an order between 29-Sep-2015 and now (or even 3-Aug-2015 and now) still has a refundable deposit and won't be seeing their car for a long time, so there's no need for Tesla to do anything special but process a requested refund if the buyer wants it.

The current HPWC no longer offers the 60A circuit option that would match the 48A charge current of the Model X... so if you purchase a Wall Connector, you'll have to install it for 80A or 100A circuit size to get the higher-speed charging. I'm guessing Tesla will do something about that at some point.

I am glad that I have the original (2012) HPWC which allows for a 60A/48A setting.
So now I can charge my Model X overnight at 30 miles per hour rate of charge (8 hrs = 240 miles range)

 

[Cosmacelf]

I think that the main problem is not that Engineers are making these decisions, but Engineers that don't use the product on a daily basis are making these decisions. Send the design team on a trip on state highways that are not located in California, and you can bet that the car charger won't be a crippled version.

That is exactly one of the functions of marketing product managers...

 

[ohmman]

I am glad that I have the original (2012) HPWC which allows for a 60A/48A setting.
So now I can charge my Model X overnight at 30 miles per hour rate of charge

The only downside to installing with the 100A setting is the additional cost/wiring and capacity. Obviously if you don't have the capacity this could be a restriction. However, if you've got it, the MX will still scale at 48A and you can charge a properly equipped MS at a more reasonable 80A. :wink:

 

[Gwgan]

Posted in the New England thread, Maine ski area has 3 Tesla Connectors, up to 64A. That's a location with overnight accommodations but a lot of day skiers. Why switch to a charger which could not take advantage of destination equipment such as these?

 

[eloder]

But why can't the target demographic include you and I, and many others? Offer a couple simple options: fold down seats and a dual 40 or single 72 charger..and I think you would attract many more potential buyers.

You could say the same thing about Apple iPhones. Surely they would attract many more buyers if they had optional removable batteries, optional SD card slots, optional small-size and cheap-cost phones, right?

Yet, they don't.

Tesla and Apple have an incredible number of similarities with product design and marketing.

Apple is one of the most successful companies in the world and they intentionally leave out wide swaths of customers.

I'm sure Apple has a reason for excluding so many millions of customers, and I'm sure Tesla has one as well. You may not like simplicity and streamlining, but Tesla and the market at large does. I personally would like Tesla more if they offered a <10 foot long 2-seater hatchback, but that doesn't make it a good business decision for them.

 

[ecarfan]

Apple and Tesla are both "aspirational" brands. They don't "intentionally leave out...customers" they create extremely compelling products that huge numbers of people desire and buy when they can afford them.

 

[aesculus]

You could say the same thing about Apple iPhones. Surely they would attract many more buyers if they had optional removable batteries, optional SD card slots, optional small-size and cheap-cost phones, right?

It's more like the iPhone 6 has a removable battery but the iPhone 6+ does not. Because Apple did a study to determine that very few iPhone 6 customers ever replaced their batteries.

 

[ohmman]

It's more like the iPhone 6 has a removable battery but the iPhone 6+ does not. Because Apple did a study to determine that very few iPhone 6 customers ever replaced their batteries.

..and replacing the battery was something you could only do in certain locations with the proper tool. But in those locations, it was tremendously useful because batteries didn't hold a charge. Or something.

 

[ilovtesl]

I found this on one of the forums off tesla's website. This is from a founders car at the event.

 

[eloder]

It's more like the iPhone 6 has a removable battery but the iPhone 6+ does not. Because Apple did a study to determine that very few iPhone 6 customers ever replaced their batteries.

How would that be different than Apple no longer producing 4" screen size phones? Not everyone wants a big phone, and Apple intentionally alienated customers who still prefer small phones. But they still did it anyways.

Also, the iPhone 6s line actually has smaller capacity batteries than the iPhone 6 line. That's a straight-up downgrade. Or see the new Macbook and its single USB port situation. Also a flat-out downgrade. There are dozens of examples where Apple has intentionally alienated customers--each of which has caused huge outcries in special interest communities--but they still do it anyways.

Anyways, this speculation is downright silly. Tesla engineers aren't sitting in a circle, cackling with one another as they decide how to best screw over the dedicated loyal members of TMC by downgrading a charger.

 

[Johan]

Anyways, this speculation is downright silly. Tesla engineers aren't sitting in a circle, cackling with one another as they decide how to best screw over the dedicated loyal members of TMC by downgrading a charger.

This may be called speculation on my part, but I heard they like to sit in a square like formation when cackling and plotting their evilness.

 

[Cyclone]

This may be called speculation on my part, but I heard they like to sit in a square like formation when cackling and plotting their evilness.

And the evil can spread! Be forewarned!

 

[FlatSix911]

^^^ Nominated for best post on this thread!