Update to the Supercharger network policies

[Garlan Garner]

Agreed. I stand by the notion that Tesla prefers to encourage Supercharger use. Certain measures that some put forth with the intent to discourage Supercharger use may in fact have the opposite effect, causing the very lines and delays they are afraid of experiencing. Popular routes and popular sites will always be busier than some would prefer, but that is not necessarily a problem that all must endure a 'fix' for.

They are going to have to do a lot of encouraging now.

I encourage you to buy my product. That sounds like standard BAU.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

Yep, its percolating. Just a simmer right now.

We're reasonably certain Tesla people frequent these boards.

They know any time they make a tiny change, we're all over it.

So I'm sure they're already combing the boards for feedback on this one.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

That's just demand management and they can design algorithms around it. Once more autonomous features are unlocked, it's very possible that there will be a queue of 30 cars at supercharging stations. They coordinate the line among themselves always leaving 1 spot available for people driving through.

I don't think it's going to be that bad.

As for why should Tesla? Because it's needed to make EV's more common and easy to switch to. It's the right thing, but others haven't done it.

The place I differ is that this is a much safer business (to sell electricity at charging stations) than to design and build cars. They should price it in a way to turn a profit and make it so that Tesla Charging could be spun off into it's own publicly traded firm some day. It would be a benefit for shareholders.

Thanks to our fabulous government, autonomous Teslas might not be solving these problems for us for a while.

So what do we do in the meantime?

Maybe it's locked down by time, if you're a local, you are either locked out from charging, or have to pay an extra fee, if you decide to use a SC during peak times. And perhaps at SC's with enough stalls, ALL vehicles that "live" in the local area are locked out of certain stalls, either all day, or during certain times....sort of on the idea of EZPass lanes. If you're not a local, you'll have peace of mind that the only people in at least one stall are like-minded travelers.

They have smart people working for them. People with knowledge of utility regulations, interstate commerce laws, real-time vehicle data, and algorithms.

The rest of us? All we're doing is "spitballing".

 

[mknox]

Given the way things work now where the car tells the SC that it is ok to charge it, it would require more than an adapter to let other makes charge at the SC. The other manufacturers would need to add some way for their cars to talk to the SC.

I disagree. I think it would be a relatively simple matter to incorporate the "smarts" into an adapter, and I would put money on Tesla doing exactly this. Elon has long said he wants other manufacturers to get on board with their standards, but it seems to me that simple stubborn pride is what's holding back legacy car makers. The way around this is an adapter. It would further Tesla's goal of monetizing the network, accelerating the move to sustainable transportation (Tesla already says they can't do it alone) and puts Tesla in the position of becoming the "gas" station of the future.

My guess, however, is that Tesla won't do this before the release of Model 3.

You are looking at this from the wrong perspective ... the free juice model was not sustainable for the long term.

Oh, I agree. In the early days, free charging encouraged adoption, but as sales pick up, having to pay for juice is the only way for them to be able to continue to expand the network and to prevent congestion by "opportunity chargers".

I was simply pointing out what 400 kWh is worth to me. You can obfuscate all you want by converting it to miles and comparing it with gas, but at the end of the day, 400 kWh of electrical energy (which is what they are giving) is worth $30 - $50 and compares to 1 oil change on an ICE.

 

[MP3Mike]

I disagree. I think it would be a relatively simple matter to incorporate the "smarts" into an adapter, and I would put money on Tesla doing exactly this. Elon has long said he wants other manufacturers to get on board with their standards, but it seems to me that simple stubborn pride is what's holding back legacy car makers. The way around this is an adapter.

One of the things Elon said is that the cars would need to be capable of absorbing energy fast enough, so they need to be able to handle ~100kWs. I don't think any other cars can currently do that. (They don't want cars sitting there "trickle" charging and taking up a space needed by a Tesla.)

 

[Red Sage]

They should price it in a way to turn a profit and make it so that Tesla Charging could be spun off into it's own publicly traded firm some day. It would be a benefit for shareholders.

Except that every time that anyone has done this they have found that the amount necessary 'to turn a profit' from EV charging is typically over the threshold of acceptance by the public, thus it ends up discouraging use in its entirety. Even gas stations make their actual profit off of the sale of potato chips, chewing gum, soda, sandwiches, pastries, tobacco, and alcohol. I encourage you, as I do everyone else that makes such a suggestion, to put your own money toward such an endeavor to prove me wrong. The notion that Tesla Energy can become 'The NeXT EXXON!!!' is ridiculous, because you can get electricity anywhere, and make it from just about anything. Petroleum products are not so readily available through alternative sources, and have a captive audience of ICE vehicles.

 

[shokunin]

I absolutely hate it when Companies write rules and change policy based on less than 10% of the population.

Maybe their decision is being based not on population but where their customers are. More than 30% of tesla's delivered in the US are in California and that's only based on the rebate statistics. The number could be higher due to the people who did not qualify or did not apply for the California CVRP rebate since it ran out of funding earlier this year.

 

[mknox]

One of the things Elon said is that the cars would need to be capable of absorbing energy fast enough, so they need to be able to handle ~100kWs. I don't think any other cars can currently do that. (They don't want cars sitting there "trickle" charging and taking up a space needed by a Tesla.)

My early 2013 has an A-pack that maxes out at 90 kW. I rarely see it above 75, and often when I use my CHAdeMO adapter, I can't even get the full 50 kW that the station can deliver. I guess I'm a trickle charger taking up space... but at least I can do it for life

Seriously, though, a slightly lower charge on a car with a smaller battery should not be hogging a stall for any longer than a P100D on empty would.

 

[Red Sage]

Thanks to our fabulous government, autonomous Teslas might not be solving these problems for us for a while.

It isn't always the government that drags their heels. The NHTSA recommended that school buses have seat belts in 1968. Manufacturers have opted not to do so, for the most part, ever since. I think that, as was the case with safety equipment for passenger cars (like seat belts, air bags, ABS), it will be up to insurance companies to accept that Autonomous cars are safer before any actual mandate would go through. Insurance companies are responsible for the NO Bicycles, NO Rollerskating, NO Skateboards signs at your local parks as well.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

It isn't always the government that drags their heels. The NHTSA recommended that school buses have seat belts in 1968. Manufacturers have opted not to do so, for the most part, ever since. I think that, as was the case with safety equipment for passenger cars (like seat belts, air bags, ABS), it will be up to insurance companies to accept that Autonomous cars are safer before any actual mandate would go through. Insurance companies are responsible for the NO Bicycles, NO Rollerskating, NO Skateboards signs at your local parks as well.

But if the NHTSA mandates that school buses come with seat belts, they will; the same way that the NHTSA has mandated that all 2017 US sold vehicles have a standard rear view camera.

 

[MP3Mike]

My early 2013 has an A-pack that maxes out at 90 kW. I rarely see it above 75, and often when I use my CHAdeMO adapter, I can't even get the full 50 kW that the station can deliver. I guess I'm a trickle charger taking up space... but at least I can do it for life

Seriously, though, a slightly lower charge on a car with a smaller battery should not be hogging a stall for any longer than a P100D on empty would.

I think 90kW counts as ~100kW. (I'm still surprised that Tesla didn't replace all of the A packs with newer packs, especially when one has a failure.)

We don't know how long would a Bolt with a 60kWh battery will take to charge from 0%-90% compared to a Model S,or 3, 60kWh car... As far as we know the Bolt is limited to 50kW, and we don't know it's taper. So it could take almost twice as long. If I am doing the math correctly a Bolt would take at least 1.25 hours to go from 0 to 90%. (214 miles) (That is assuming no taper.) GM says you can get up to 90 miles in 30 minutes on a DC Fast charger while Tesla says you can get up to 170 miles in the same 30 minutes. So it sounds like the Bolt will charge at about half the speed.

As far as the CHAdeMO issue, can the station actually deliver 50Kw to any car?

 

[MXWing]

Maybe their decision is being based not on population but where their customers are. More than 30% of tesla's delivered in the US are in California and that's only based on the rebate statistics. The number could be higher due to the people who did not qualify or did not apply for the California CVRP rebate since it ran out of funding earlier this year.

I promise you the California rebate has 0 to do with the number of Tesla's in California. The rebate pays for -half- of the EAP feature set. The rebates are back with stricter rules. The new rules starting for EV rebates after 11/1/2016 makes it impossible for a person who can get into a Tesla, qualify for the rebates.
People smarter or shadier than I might figure something out.

California is the home of the high margin tech companies. There's enough money generated from margin of sale and stock money that allows many many people to buy them here.

 

[DiamondDave]

A lot of posts view this policy as a detriment to local charging. I may be in the minority, but it would have the opposite effect on me.

If I lived in a place where it was difficult or impossible to install home charging, I'd be more inclined to buy a Tesla now knowing that the existing local charging controversy would go away as well as the impression others would have of me as cheap or taking advantage of Tesla.

If I lived in a home where I could install a charging solution but it would be very costly, I would feel OK about charging at the supercharger instead if I was paying for it.

So I, for one, would be more likely to use a local supercharging resource if I was paying my fair share. And I think that it's important that Model III owners, who are probably less likely to live in a situation where they can charge at home, be able to charge locally and pay their fair share as well.

 

[hingisfan]

But then where do u draw the line? Can I drive Uber? How would they know I'm driving Uber? Part time Uber ok? Really messy and time consuming.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

A lot of posts view this policy as a detriment to local charging. I may be in the minority, but it would have the opposite effect on me.

If I lived in a place where it was difficult or impossible to install home charging, I'd be more inclined to buy a Tesla now knowing that the existing local charging controversy would go away as well as the impression others would have of me as cheap or taking advantage of Tesla.

If I lived in a home where I could install a charging solution but it would be very costly, I would feel OK about charging at the supercharger instead if I was paying for it.

So I, for one, would be more likely to use a local supercharging resource if I was paying my fair share. And I think that it's important that Model III owners, who are probably less likely to live in a situation where they can charge at home, be able to charge locally and pay their fair share as well.

and now in a small or medium sized city, you and 100 or so of your fellow local Model 3 owners are using the SCs in the same way.

How do travelers passing through deal with that? How does Tesla deal with that?

 

[shokunin]

I promise you the California rebate has 0 to do with the number of Tesla's in California. The rebate pays for -half- of the EAP feature set. The rebates are back with stricter rules. The new rules starting for EV rebates after 11/1/2016 makes it impossible for a person who can get into a Tesla, qualify for the rebates.
People smarter or shadier than I might figure something out.

California is the home of the high margin tech companies. There's enough money generated from margin of sale and stock money that allows many many people to buy them here.

I was only using the California rebate as the 'source' of data for the 30% figure. The rebate statistics publishes how many teslas have been approved for the rebate which can be compared to the estimates of total US deliveries to come up with the 30%.

I agree the rebate has almost nothing to do with the current amount of Tesla's in California, myself and others I know don't even qualify for the rebate. In reality the % of teslas delivered in California is probably much higher than 30% since a fair number (just a guess) of people cannot even qualify for the rebate.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

I was only using the California rebate as the 'source' of data for the 30% figure. The rebate statistics publishes how many teslas have been approved for the rebate which can be compared to the estimates of total US deliveries to come up with the 30%.

I agree the rebate has almost nothing to do with the current amount of Tesla's in California, myself and others I know don't even qualify for the rebate. In reality the % of teslas delivered in California is probably much higher than 30% since a fair number (just a guess) of people cannot even qualify for the rebate.

MA runs into the same problem. Earlier this year, they anti-Tesla'd the rebate by saying any vehicle that MSRPs over $60K no longer qualifies. I think the only other one that cutoff affects right now is the i8.

 

[TES-E]

How many Model 3 reservation holders just took another look at the Bolt upon hearing this news?

I wasn't aware that the Bolt was offering free electric for life.

 

[ChadFeldheimer]

and now in a small or medium sized city, you and 100 or so of your fellow local Model 3 owners are using the SCs in the same way.

How do travelers passing through deal with that? How does Tesla deal with that?

Tesla deals with that by building more Superchargers in that area. Paid for with Supercharger revenue from those very Superchargers.

 

[Booga]

Except that every time that anyone has done this they have found that the amount necessary 'to turn a profit' from EV charging is typically over the threshold of acceptance by the public, thus it ends up discouraging use in its entirety. Even gas stations make their actual profit off of the sale of potato chips, chewing gum, soda, sandwiches, pastries, tobacco, and alcohol. I encourage you, as I do everyone else that makes such a suggestion, to put your own money toward such an endeavor to prove me wrong. The notion that Tesla Energy can become 'The NeXT EXXON!!!' is ridiculous, because you can get electricity anywhere, and make it from just about anything. Petroleum products are not so readily available through alternative sources, and have a captive audience of ICE vehicles.

The reason no one else can make it work without discouraging use is not because they need to earn huge profits, because the profit margin is rather small, but because of poor utilization rates. If assets (superchargers) are turned over frequently, they will generate good capital returns despite small margins and still allow it to be worthwhile. The volume and scale of the user base will make all the difference here.