Very Difficult decision..Canceling my Sig X reservation

[Owner]

The 1/2 of the roof is another compromise. Surfboards and paddle boards vary in size.
My paddle board when on the roof takes up a lot more than 1/2 of the roof.

During practice for the 9/29 event, they did have a surfboard on top of the Model X. They scrapped that portion of the public event but Musk Tweeted later that the Model X would support a specialized suction cup roof mount, rated at speeds up to 140 MPH. It could be placed on one side (one FWD) while still having access to the other falcon wing door. I'm assuming that was the mount they were going to show at the reveal event but then chose not to (maybe since they were already running late).

You can see a glimpse of that here: BigPictureBigSound on Twitter:

 

[ohmman]

However, reading this discussion is is TOO EASY to forget that for moms (and fathers) with young kids this 'seatgate' is really a great improvement vs. any other SUV out there. I feel bad for AIMc and others on here or who are displeased and canceling, but selfishly I AM VERY excited for these new and improved seats to use as its such a pain to gets my kids in and out of car seats with current cars/SUVS, this will make that experience much less painful to go through multiple times a day. I know at least one other couple with young kids who these seats (and safety) made a difference and they will be ordering an X as a result. Maybe they wouldn't be getting the X if the seats were standard folding seats (and the safety wasn't quite as good which some on here have argued is better with the current non-folding seats).

Some assumptions are being made here, which it's worthwhile pointing out:

1. Folding seats would somehow be less safe. We don't know this, and in my opinion it can't be inferred with the knowledge we have.
2. The non-folding seats are more convenient for car seats/young kids compared to folding seats. I just don't see that being the case, with one exception. That is, if folding seats exclusively can not slide forward enough to allow entry to the third row AND you have more than two children/two adults/basically need access to the third row regularly.

 

[Cottonwood]

Also, on the topic of what is an SUV, I would suggest people read this:
Sport utility vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We all have our own interpretations of what an SUV is, but it seems the Model X according to the above link meets the definition of a "mid-sized SUV" (NOT a CUV). The people on here that are upset with the non-folding seats or lack of towing capacity probably are looking more for an Extended-Length SUV or pickup truck, both of which I think Tesla may come out with at some point down the road. I could see a "Model XL" down the road for an 'extended length SUV' which probably would meet people's needs on here who are currently disappointed that they can't put large pieces of furniture in it.

As you say, we can argue whether or not the X is an SUV, but it clearly is a Crossover or CUV.

From Wiki - Crossover:

A crossover, also known as a crossover utility vehicle (CUV), is a vehicle built on a car platform and combining, in highly variable degrees, features of a sport utility vehicle (SUV) with features from a passenger vehicle, especially those of a station wagon or hatchback.

Using the unibody construction typical of passenger vehicles instead of the body-on-frame platform used in light trucks and the original SUVs, the crossover combines SUV design features such as tall interior packaging, high H-point seating, high center of gravity, high ground-clearance or all-wheel-drive capability – with design features from an automobile such as a passenger vehicle's platform, independent rear suspension, car-like handling and superior fuel economy.​

I claim that just as "S" is short for Sedan, "X" refers to the cross in Crossover. Tesla knew it was a Crossover when they announced it in 2012.

 

[Cyclone]

I have to agree with Cottonwood here. But either way, we have what we have.

 

[TSLAopt]

Some assumptions are being made here, which it's worthwhile pointing out:

1. Folding seats would somehow be less safe. We don't know this, and in my opinion it can't be inferred with the knowledge we have.
2. The non-folding seats are more convenient for car seats/young kids compared to folding seats. I just don't see that being the case, with one exception. That is, if folding seats exclusively can not slide forward enough to allow entry to the third row AND you have more than two children/two adults/basically need access to the third row regularly.

Great profile picture

- - - Updated - - -

I have to agree with Cottonwood here. But either way, we have what we have.

yes, and the displeasure on this forum about the 2nd row seats is a poor representation (statistically) of the general public, just want to make sure people reading this forum understand that.

Last thing we need is some innocent reporter combing these forums for material to report on to try to make a hit piece out of people's comments on here about lack of folding seats out of context so that shorts or Tesla-haters can use it as further fuel against Tesla

 

[TexasEV]

With all of the talk over the past few months about how most Model S buyers are men and the Model X was being designed to be more appealing to women, I don't think it's a surprise that Tesla designed it more for ease of driving carpools than for hauling cargo. As millennials have children and move from their loft apartments in the city to a house in the suburbs, this is the SUV (or whatever category it is) that they will want.

 

[Cyclone]

yes, and the displeasure on this forum about the 2nd row seats is a poor representation (statistically) of the general public, just want to make sure people reading this forum understand that.

I wouldn't necessarily say that. We are talking about a thread where about cancelling a reservation because of the seats. As with most things in life, we don't get people posting "everything is great today. No problems on my car/order." But I agree that some of the general public may not realize this point and think the sky is falling.

For me, I've had 9 (in person) conversations with people about the X when they see my S. In all cases, saying that it's targeting at CUV/minivan owners made it much easier for them to understand the key features of the vehicle.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

With all of the talk over the past few months about how most Model S buyers are men and the Model X was being designed to be more appealing to women, I don't think it's a surprise that Tesla designed it more for ease of driving carpools than for hauling cargo. As millennials have children and move from their loft apartments in the city to a house in the suburbs, this is the SUV (or whatever category it is) that they will want.*

*They'll just need to rent a moving truck or trailer as well when actually moving to that new house. :wink:

 

[Vitold]

Yes, back on topic. It is unfortunate for some of us that Tesla changed some of it's original design of the folding 2nd row seats.
However, after they conducted focus groups with women and aimed for this car to be a car for woman, they determined an IMPROVEMENT for that goal would be the current seats they've released which in my opinion is the correct improvement for them to make since this car is supposed to be geared towards women (which by the way I'm sure we have a very poor representation of women in this forum, at least the active commentators on this forum are probably something like a male/female ratio of 10/90 or 20/80 instead of 50/50).

Since you're speculating allow me to do the same:

1 Tesla has realized at some point that folding seats will not be ready for the market.
2 Or, after crash testing they realized that folding seats need redesign and they run out of time.

No matter what truth is, I think they do have market for selling 50k Model X with current configuration throughout 2016. When time comes to address another 50k of buyers they will come up with revised version.

 

[efusco]

Some assumptions are being made here, which it's worthwhile pointing out:

1. Folding seats would somehow be less safe. We don't know this, and in my opinion it can't be inferred with the knowledge we have.
2. The non-folding seats are more convenient for car seats/young kids compared to folding seats. I just don't see that being the case, with one exception. That is, if folding seats exclusively can not slide forward enough to allow entry to the third row AND you have more than two children/two adults/basically need access to the third row regularly.

It's too bad that the seats can't both fold and do the forward tilt trick, that would seem to satisfy all parties. I can't imagine they wouldn't be able to make them just as safe.

 

[CarlK]

Some assumptions are being made here, which it's worthwhile pointing out:

1. Folding seats would somehow be less safe. We don't know this, and in my opinion it can't be inferred with the knowledge we have.
2. The non-folding seats are more convenient for car seats/young kids compared to folding seats. I just don't see that being the case, with one exception. That is, if folding seats exclusively can not slide forward enough to allow entry to the third row AND you have more than two children/two adults/basically need access to the third row regularly.

It's not just non-folding seats but pedestal seats that slides. The space under the seat is a great convenience imo. Passengers can carry stuff and kids their backpacks onboard without having to go to back of the car to store or retreive them there every time they get in or get out of the car.

It's too bad that the seats can't both fold and do the forward tilt trick, that would seem to satisfy all parties. I can't imagine they wouldn't be able to make them just as safe.

My guess is it's less because of safty and more the way they want to make it a sculptural piece of art. Elon showed some slab seats in the event and seems to be laughing at them as to how primitive they are. A lot of people complained the back seat of the MS was not luxury enough. This is the case of you got what you wished for. We should know Elon would never make anything just good enough.

 

[TexasEV]

*They'll just need to rent a moving truck or trailer as well when actually moving to that new house. :wink:

That's OK-- no daily use SUV is big enough to take the place of a moving van. I don't think many people buy a car based on what they would need to move to a new house.

 

[AlMc]

That's OK-- no daily use SUV is big enough to take the place of a moving van. I don't think many people buy a car based on what they would need to move to a new house.

Correct. In my situation I would just like it to have more utility so I don't need to rent the Home Depot truck or buy a trailer...I have had to do neither with our current SUV...

 

[MorrisonHiker]

That's OK-- no daily use SUV is big enough to take the place of a moving van. I don't think many people buy a car based on what they would need to move to a new house.

I used my CR-V to move households twice as everything I owned would fit in my CR-V (using multiple trips). The first move, the largest piece of furniture I had was a futon and full-size roll up mattress. For the second move, I had a Select Comfort mattress that disassembled, dining room table (legs removed), big screen TV, etc.). At the time, I didn't have any appliances or anything too big to fit in the back. That was back in 2000 and 2002. Needless to say, I've acquired more possessions since then and now would need a moving truck or trailer.

- - - Updated - - -

Correct. In my situation I would just like it to have more utility so I don't need to rent the Home Depot truck or buy a trailer...I have had to do neither with our current SUV...

I've only needed a Home Depot truck once in the past 15 years or so. Everything else has fit in my CR-V. So much room with the seats down. Not as huge as full-sized SUVs but it has been sufficient for my needs. :biggrin:

 

[ohmman]

It's not just non-folding seats but pedestal seats that slides. The space under the seat is a great convenience imo. Passengers can carry stuff and kids their backpacks onboard without having to go to back of the car to store or retreive them there every time they get in or get out of the car.

Definitely agree with this. I will be interested in seeing the space and experiencing it, because this has a lot of promise. Of course, depending on the age of the kids, their legs don't often reach into the leg space anyway. My kids put their bags at their feet or between them in the back seat of my MS. I see it more as a benefit on longer trips - the cooler and "might need while driving" items won't be jammed between everyone.

- - - Updated - - -

Correct. In my situation I would just like it to have more utility so I don't need to rent the Home Depot truck or buy a trailer...I have had to do neither with our current SUV...

And, for a lot of us who don't live very close to the hardware store, renting the HD truck means a significant time investment.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

And, for a lot of us who don't live very close to the hardware store, renting the HD truck means a significant time investment.

I think most of those who say "just rent a truck or trailer" live where they are just a few minutes away from such a facility. There are many smaller towns which don't have big chain hardware stores with truck rentals...or even local car/truck rental offices. Luckily I am close enough that renting a Home Depot truck wouldn't be very costly but for many of my relatives, there's no Home Depot for hundreds of miles. I suppose they would be able to borrow a trailer from a neighbor or even purchase one outright...but that wouldn't be necessary in many cases if those seats would just fold down.

 

[Mark Z]

That's OK-- no daily use SUV is big enough to take the place of a moving van. I don't think many people buy a car based on what they would need to move to a new house.

Correct. Whatever vehicle we have is the one that gets filled with stuff on moving day, the rest goes into the moving van. When it was a company move, I didn't need to get rid of much. After retirement, I used ABF with professionals to load/unload at both ends. Reasonable and excellent. Both the Escalade and HHR were used with the OKC to SoCal move. The boxes didn't care if the seats were folded or not. The huge items were on the moving van.

Reality is, with the Escalade I always kept the seat behind the drivers side unfolded so I could hang clothes on the hook above that seat. Hint, hint to Tesla Motors: I would love to hang some clothes on a drive trip in Model X. Laying them flat on the carpet above the rear motor in Model S is a pain.

 

[MrBoylan]

Hard to see from the pic. I wonder if the UI will offer a FWD "lockout" feature so you don't accidentally open the door. Or perhaps it will set off one of the sensors and refuse to open.

Sorry, I was pretty far away when I took them. Here are a couple more, but again, the focus isn't perfect. It looks like there may have been two surfboards on top.

 

[ZachShahan]

Yes, back on topic. It is unfortunate for some of us that Tesla changed some of it's original design of the folding 2nd row seats.
However, after they conducted focus groups with women and aimed for this car to be a car for woman, they determined an IMPROVEMENT for that goal would be the current seats they've released which in my opinion is the correct improvement for them to make since this car is supposed to be geared towards women (which by the way I'm sure we have a very poor representation of women in this forum, at least the active commentators on this forum are probably something like a male/female ratio of 10/90 or 20/80 instead of 50/50).

However, reading this discussion is is TOO EASY to forget that for moms (and fathers) with young kids this 'seatgate' is really a great improvement vs. any other SUV out there. I feel bad for AIMc and others on here or who are displeased and canceling, but selfishly I AM VERY excited for these new and improved seats to use as its such a pain to gets my kids in and out of car seats with current cars/SUVS, this will make that experience much less painful to go through multiple times a day. I know at least one other couple with young kids who these seats (and safety) made a difference and they will be ordering an X as a result. Maybe they wouldn't be getting the X if the seats were standard folding seats (and the safety wasn't quite as good which some on here have argued is better with the current non-folding seats).

Also, on the topic of what is an SUV, I would suggest people read this:
Sport utility vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We all have our own interpretations of what an SUV is, but it seems the Model X according to the above link meets the definition of a "mid-sized SUV" (NOT a CUV). The people on here that are upset with the non-folding seats or lack of towing capacity probably are looking more for an Extended-Length SUV or pickup truck, both of which I think Tesla may come out with at some point down the road. I could see a "Model XL" down the road for an 'extended length SUV' which probably would meet people's needs on here who are currently disappointed that they can't put large pieces of furniture in it.

1000+

- - - Updated - - -

It's not just non-folding seats but pedestal seats that slides. The space under the seat is a great convenience imo. Passengers can carry stuff and kids their backpacks onboard without having to go to back of the car to store or retreive them there every time they get in or get out of the car.



My guess is it's less because of safty and more the way they want to make it a sculptural piece of art. Elon showed some slab seats in the event and seems to be laughing at them as to how primitive they are. A lot of people complained the back seat of the MS was not luxury enough. This is the case of you got what you wished for. We should know Elon would never make anything just good enough.

Yes, we could have a debate here forever about which is better, but at the moment, we really don't have market research on these matters. I personally *much* prefer the new seats because of:

• the ease of loading/unloading babies/kids
• the storage space underneath
• what seems to be greater comfort

And because I probably couldn't care less about having a 90-inch flat surface with folded seats. The Tesla bike/ski rack looks great to me. For larger items, a $300 trailer seems like an excellent option. If I'm moving, I'd rather pay movers to mess with it than spend more of my time on it.

(But to reiterate before I get in trouble: it's too bad Tesla didn't communicate this change earlier to reservation holders, or find a way to make folding seats work with the end product... if possible.)

And I agree about Elon responding to criticisms of the Model S back seats. Next up: back seats that act like transformers and turn into any shape you like.

 

[AlMc]

@Zach and @TSLAopt: Totally understand your liking of the new and/or improved X over the prototype shown ( I know the prototype can change....but would it have been awful if TM communicated with early reservation depositors that *some* of the utility changed from the prototype to production model before opening the design studio?) and from a TM executive, James Chen, only 2-3 months ago after NO discussion about towing ability indicating that towing capacity would be *about 10K*?

I know we are going around in circles here. Can we agree: TM has suffered some cancelations by early reservation holders because they poorly communicated with us. First, by taking *some* of the utility out of the SUV by not having an *option* of folding rear seats creating the flat surface of the prototype and that they erred when they communicated that towing capacity would be 10K?
This
problem with communication and the resulting X shown at the reveal has caused some people to be very happy as the X is a great EV that transports people safely, quickly and in comfort but that has led to other people canceling reservations because it lacks some of the flexibility that *most* SUVs possess?

TM/EM is an innovative company that I, and many others, support through our purchases of their products and the holding of stock positions. IMO, they messed this situation up. Poor communication and lack of the option for the folding seats at launch were mistakes. We all make mistakes. All companies make mistakes. They will correct this mistake. But for many of us buying the X that is available to us now would be a mistake. Once this is corrected, I, and many others will most likely get back in line for an X...just too bad we had to wait this long only to have to wait for the option we *assumed* would be available after our 2+ year wait.