Very Difficult decision..Canceling my Sig X reservation

[TSLAopt]

@Zach and @TSLAopt: Totally understand your liking of the new and/or improved X over the prototype shown ( I know the prototype can change....but would it have been awful if TM communicated with early reservation depositors that *some* of the utility changed from the prototype to production model before opening the design studio?) and from a TM executive, James Chen, only 2-3 months ago after NO discussion about towing ability indicating that towing capacity would be *about 10K*?

I know we are going around in circles here. Can we agree: TM has suffered some cancelations by early reservation holders because they poorly communicated with us. First, by taking *some* of the utility out of the SUV by not having an *option* of folding rear seats creating the flat surface of the prototype and that they erred when they communicated that towing capacity would be 10K?
This
problem with communication and the resulting X shown at the reveal has caused some people to be very happy as the X is a great EV that transports people safely, quickly and in comfort but that has led to other people canceling reservations because it lacks some of the flexibility that *most* SUVs possess?

TM/EM is an innovative company that I, and many others, support through our purchases of their products and the holding of stock positions. IMO, they messed this situation up. Poor communication and lack of the option for the folding seats at launch were mistakes. We all make mistakes. All companies make mistakes. They will correct this mistake. But for many of us buying the X that is available to us now would be a mistake. Once this is corrected, I, and many others will most likely get back in line for an X...just too bad we had to wait this long only to have to wait for the option we *assumed* would be available after our 2+ year wait.

Yes it is possible they could have made a public announcement months ago when they determined the 2nd row seats wouldn't fold down anymore. Unfortunately there is no good way they could have just communicated to a few Sig X reservation holders without it getting to the public so they would have had to make some public announcement, not just a comment in a public interview which would look even worse without an announcement. Even with an official announcement or press release stating that the 2nd row seats won't fold down in the new Model X then you'd have tons of Sig X holders scrambling (including me) trying to figure out what all the other details are of the X to decide what the 2nd row seats will do then if they don't fold down, there must be something else they do instead, right?...what other new/changed features might it have as well? etc.

I'm sure you can imagine how people then on these forums would be anxious or upset even more than they are now creating threads entitled "Tesla communication around 2nd row seats incomplete and incompetent" or "why don't the 2nd row seats fold down anymore? what do the new seats look like then?", etc.

In my opinion, they chose the lesser of two evils by not announcing it months ago and waiting for the reveal for everyone to see everything all at once.

If I were you AIMc I'd still just get the X for $132k (or even go onto the normal waitlist to get the non-performance one with less options for $10-20k less) and then pay $10-20k for a used pickup truck to use the once a week you need to carry large cargo.
This way when you're not carrying large cargo you still get all the benefits (safety and cool new features) and keep your X cleaner and less likely to get dinged up loading big things in and out of it...more importantly, you'd get to experience the product of a once-in-a-lifetime company you're heavily invested in for the long term...if you didn't like the ride or thought poorly of the X in any way after owning it (other than not being able to carry large furniture) then maybe it would convince you to rightly sell some of your TSLA stock and save you a lot more than the $10-20k for that used pickup truck...or conversely, instead of selling TSLA (or some of your TSLA holdings) because you think they missed by not having the 2nd row seats fold down you will experience all the other amazingness of the car after owning it to convince you to hold onto all your TSLA long-term (perhaps buy more which is what I did after getting an S60 2.5 years ago) and it will make you much more than the $10-20k for that used pickup truck.

 

[ohmman]

If I were you AIMc..

Yeah, I think the clearest thing from this thread is that we're all different people. And the "if I were you" doesn't help, because you're not him. And he's not you. I'm glad the vehicle is working as-is for some people, and that they (maybe) prefer it. But Al's situation is reasonable and clear, in my view, and I think Tesla could have treated him and those like him in a better fashion.

 

[ZachShahan]

I know we are going around in circles here. Can we agree: TM has suffered some cancelations by early reservation holders because they poorly communicated with us. First, by taking *some* of the utility out of the SUV by not having an *option* of folding rear seats creating the flat surface of the prototype and that they erred when they communicated that towing capacity would be 10K?

Yes, definitely! This is what I thought I communicated here: "(But to reiterate before I get in trouble: it's too bad Tesla didn't communicate this change earlier to reservation holders, or find a way to make folding seats work with the end product... if possible.)" And I've communicated my unhappiness with that much more strongly several times.

I've also expressed at length that I think Tesla really needs to improve its communications, and this side of the business concerns me as a shareholder. Seatgate is one of the biggest communications failures from the company, imo, but I know of many others.

I simply thought we were past discussing all of that and were circling back to a general discussion on whether the changes were a good idea on the whole. But maybe we're all just going in circles and I should drop the thread to avoid spinning the wheel further.

 

[TSLAopt]

Yeah, I think the clearest thing from this thread is that we're all different people. And the "if I were you" doesn't help, because you're not him. And he's not you. I'm glad the vehicle is working as-is for some people, and that they (maybe) prefer it. But Al's situation is reasonable and clear, in my view, and I think Tesla could have treated him and those like him in a better fashion.

they picked the lesser of two evils, read the paragraph above what you quoted

 

[ZachShahan]

Yes it is possible they could have made a public announcement months ago when they determined the 2nd row seats wouldn't fold down anymore. Unfortunately there is no good way they could have just communicated to a few Sig X reservation holders without it getting to the public so they would have had to make some public announcement, not just a comment in a public interview which would look even worse without an announcement. Even with an official announcement or press release stating that the 2nd row seats won't fold down in the new Model X then you'd have tons of Sig X holders scrambling (including me) trying to figure out what all the other details are of the X to decide what the 2nd row seats will do then if they don't fold down, there must be something else they do instead, right?...what other new/changed features might it have as well? etc.

I'm sure you can imagine how people then on these forums would be anxious or upset even more than they are now creating threads entitled "Tesla communication around 2nd row seats incomplete and incompetent" or "why don't the 2nd row seats fold down anymore? what do the new seats look like then?", etc.

In my opinion, they chose the lesser of two evils by not announcing it months ago and waiting for the reveal for everyone to see everything all at once.

If I were you AIMc I'd still just get the X for $132k (or even go onto the normal waitlist to get the non-performance one with less options for $10-20k less) and then pay $10-20k for a used pickup truck to use the once a week you need to carry large cargo.
This way when you're not carrying large cargo you still get all the benefits (safety and cool new features) and keep your X cleaner and less likely to get dinged up loading big things in and out of it...more importantly, you'd get to experience the product of a once-in-a-lifetime company you're heavily invested in for the long term...if you didn't like the ride or thought poorly of the X in any way after owning it (other than not being able to carry large furniture) then maybe it would convince you to rightly sell some of your TSLA stock and save you a lot more than the $10-20k for that used pickup truck...or conversely, instead of selling TSLA (or some of your TSLA holdings) because you think they missed by not having the 2nd row seats fold down you will experience all the other amazingness of the car after owning it to convince you to hold onto all your TSLA long-term (perhaps buy more which is what I did after getting an S60 2.5 years ago) and it will make you much more than the $10-20k for that used pickup truck.

Hmm, very good points. I guess the old line regarding a rock and a hard place comes in here. Still, I think they could have slipped some information to reservation holders earlier in the midst of other updates about the vehicle. But, yeah, the result probably wouldn't have been much different.

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Yeah, I think the clearest thing from this thread is that we're all different people. And the "if I were you" doesn't help, because you're not him. And he's not you. I'm glad the vehicle is working as-is for some people, and that they (maybe) prefer it. But Al's situation is reasonable and clear, in my view, and I think Tesla could have treated him and those like him in a better fashion.

Agreed.

Like TSLAopt, I genuinely can't imagine going with anything but the option he/she spelled out, but I'm not a fan of "If I were you" statements regarding decisions already made, since they're inherently imprecise -- "If I were you, I'd make exactly the same decision you made." is basically the only right way to complete such statements, in my opinion.

As far as how Tesla should have dealt with the seats issue, it's hard for anyone to really say. We don't even know when the change occurred. We don't even know if Tesla wasn't trying to find a way to make it work until "the last minute." I think it's sort of telling that Tesla didn't really show the cargo space in the back, but just pulled out a bunch of luggage. I think they know very well that they screwed up by some customers and oversold one aspect of the X, something Elon *very clearly* did not want to do. How they should have dealt with falling short on that one single use, I can't really say. Even now, if they were to apologize privately, there's a good chance someone would post about it here, and then the media can run one of its anti-Tesla "Tesla messed up big time and had to apologize" articles. Elon & I'm sure others at Tesla are very cautious about bringing negative press in since they've seen how much it can be blown out of proportion.

Communicating to any of the awesome people who had a Sig reservation or even production reservation and were let down, I've got complete sympathy for them. Considering what Tesla "should have done" is a separate matter, in my eyes. That is a much more complicated matter, as TSLAopt has just spelled out.

 

[ohmman]

they picked the lesser of two evils, read the paragraph above what you quoted

I read that. According to your hypothesis, they did.

My hypothesis differs in that it is open to a myriad of solutions that don't necessarily hold these two outcomes in mutually exclusive worlds.

At this point, either of ours could be right, because I think neither of us are insiders to Tesla. So we'll have to agree to disagree, which I'm perfectly fine doing. And to be honest, I prefer the implications of your "hands were tied" hypothesis anyway. :smile:

 

[AlMc]

Wow. I was trying to find some common ground where we could all agree.

Let us make it simpler:biggrin:

1. Some people are happy with the X, as is.
2. Some people have canceled their reservations because they are not happy with the offering, as is.
3. Maybe (controversial it would seem) it would have been nice if TM offered the current option and a folding second seat option from the first Sig configuration
4. TM has had and continues to have some communication issues that have led to some of this problem.
5. We agree to not tell people 'What they should do'

OK? I value all your opinions. I hope you value mine and others that are/were reservation holders.

 

[Saxena]

Great statements AlMc!!

 

[dsm363]

l
5. We agree to not tell people 'What they should do'

OK?

Are you telling us to not tell people what the should do?

 

[AlMc]

Are you telling us to not tell people what the should do?

Troublemaker!:biggrin: That will cost you: You will now be requested (sentenced) to be a mod for another TWO years.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

Wow. I was trying to find some common ground where we could all agree.

Let us make it simpler:biggrin:

1. Some people are happy with the X, as is.
2. Some people have canceled their reservations because they are not happy with the offering, as is.
3. Maybe (controversial it would seem) it would have been nice if TM offered the current option and a folding second seat option from the first Sig configuration
4. TM has had and continues to have some communication issues that have led to some of this problem.
5. We agree to not tell people 'What they should do'

OK? I value all your opinions. I hope you value mine and others that are/were reservation holders.

I agree completely with this.

I personally love the Model X and would have no problem buying one. However, Model X clearly doesn't have the same "utility" as other similarly sized crossovers, and I know that is a major buying consideration for many people. Tesla consistently conveyed over the years that Model X would have a folding second row (the infamous "what would you do with all this space" photo).

Tesla messed this up badly. I hope people from the company are monitoring this thread, because they have alienated a good number of people who put down huge deposits. It's not good business practice to screw with your best and most loyal advocates... especially when Tesla is going to ask people to put down $ on Model 3 in a few short months.

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If I were you AIMc I'd still just get the X for $132k (or even go onto the normal waitlist to get the non-performance one with less options for $10-20k less) and then pay $10-20k for a used pickup truck to use the once a week you need to carry large cargo.
This way when you're not carrying large cargo you still get all the benefits (safety and cool new features) and keep your X cleaner and less likely to get dinged up loading big things in and out of it...more importantly, you'd get to experience the product of a once-in-a-lifetime company you're heavily invested in for the long term...if you didn't like the ride or thought poorly of the X in any way after owning it (other than not being able to carry large furniture) then maybe it would convince you to rightly sell some of your TSLA stock and save you a lot more than the $10-20k for that used pickup truck...

I've seen this suggested elsewhere, but it's an added headache.

That's an additional 10-20k in upfront cost, when Model X is already very expensive. Having an ICE truck also means 1 more vehicle to maintain (repairs, insurance, registration, annual inspection), and 1 more vehicle that needs a parking space. Is an old pickup going to have the best safety features?

Owning a Tesla is supposed to eliminate hassles, not create new ones.

 

[NigelM]

I've seen this suggested elsewhere, but it's an added headache.

That's an additional 10-20k in upfront cost, when Model X is already very expensive. Having an ICE truck also means 1 more vehicle to maintain (repairs, insurance, registration, annual inspection), and 1 more vehicle that needs a parking space. Is an old pickup going to have the best safety features?

Owning a Tesla is supposed to eliminate hassles, not create new ones.

Agreed. I bought a new pick-up last year for towing and my aim was to ditch that completely once I get an X. I got a new one because of safety, fuel efficiency and other features but I hate burning gas even if it's only doing about 3k miles per year. I'll be back in for an X once the seats etc are sorted and at that point the pick-up will be sold.

 

[FlatSix911]

The bottom line (after 40 pages) ... for every 1 cancellation there will be 100+ new satisfied owners

http://www.fool.com/investing/gener...ors-inc-announces-record-sales-yet-focus.aspx

 

[ZachShahan]

Wow. I was trying to find some common ground where we could all agree.

Let us make it simpler:biggrin:

1. Some people are happy with the X, as is.
2. Some people have canceled their reservations because they are not happy with the offering, as is.
3. Maybe (controversial it would seem) it would have been nice if TM offered the current option and a folding second seat option from the first Sig configuration
4. TM has had and continues to have some communication issues that have led to some of this problem.
5. We agree to not tell people 'What they should do'

OK? I value all your opinions. I hope you value mine and others that are/were reservation holders.

Perfect. This thread is now officially closed.

Actually, though, I am curious to see if more people chime in saying they canceled their reservations, and if so, for which reasons.

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The bottom line (after 40 pages) ... for every 1 cancellation there will be 100+ new satisfied owners

http://www.fool.com/investing/gener...ors-inc-announces-record-sales-yet-focus.aspx

That's a scary chart when the last words we have from Elon are that he doesn't really know how fast certain suppliers will be able to ramp up for the X. on the other hand, as the author notes, this quarter brings a 2nd production line, and the last bar clearly shows the majority of the growth coming from more Model S production. Great to hear recently that the Model X launch has actually boosted Model S (and X) sales/reservations. That's a biggie, imho.

Still, quite nervous about the X supplier issues.

 

[CarlK]

I know we are going around in circles here. Can we agree: TM has suffered some cancelations by early reservation holders because they poorly communicated with us. First, by taking *some* of the utility out of the SUV by not having an *option* of folding rear seats creating the flat surface of the prototype and that they erred when they communicated that towing capacity would be 10K?
This problem with communication and the resulting X shown at the reveal has caused some people to be very happy as the X is a great EV that transports people safely, quickly and in comfort but that has led to other people canceling reservations because it lacks some of the flexibility that *most* SUVs possess?

Funny thing is what you guys are saying now is the type of seat is absolutely essential and the only seat you want is exactly as the one in the S. But in the last couple years all we hear is complain that those flat seats are cheap and not what should be in a $100K+ car. I'm not sure people will quit complaining if Tesla does put exactly the same seats in the X now.

The only conclusion I can make is you can't please everyone every time. Still I think people should not make emotional decisions just because they think they were not treated or communicated right. Only the end product matters. I really couldn't care less if Tesla pampers me or showers me with all the up to date and accurate information or not. All I care is what the car is like when I finally take delivery of it.

 

[Blurry_Eyed]

Perfect. This thread is now officially closed.


Still, quite nervous about the X supplier issues.

The thing to remember about supplier issues is that they will get resolved. It's not a matter of if, it's simply a matter of when. The capital raise Tesla did recently was to provide them some margin for issues such as the Model X not ramping up as quickly as they hoped. The supplier issues will get resolved and production will reach a nice cadence in the future. We just don't know how long it will take, but it will get there.

 

[bonnie]

Still I think people should not make emotional decisions just because they think they were not treated or communicated right. Only the end product matters. I really couldn't care less if Tesla pampers me or showers me with all the up to date and accurate information or not. All I care is what the car is like when I finally take delivery of it.

Do you really believe that people are saying they need the fold-flat because it's an EMOTIONAL response? People that are successful enough in life to purchase an X typically don't let their decisions be dictated by emotions.

I think dismissing this as just a result of not being pampered is unfair to a large number of people. I think it's more a matter of people know what they want and certain features are non-negotiable. I may not be canceling, but I respect my fellow forum members' decisions. They've proven themselves as critical thinkers many times on this forum, which unfortunately, I cannot say for everyone.

 

[AlMc]

The bottom line (after 40 pages) ... for every 1 cancellation there will be 100+ new satisfied owners

http://www.fool.com/investing/gener...ors-inc-announces-record-sales-yet-focus.aspx

And I am happy for every one of them. TM makes great vehicles. Does not change the fact that there was every indication that the X would come out with more utility (folding seats) than it has from the launch. This has caused some people, myself included, to cancel our reservations.

 

[Cyclone]

Funny thing is what you guys are saying now is the type of seat is absolutely essential and the only seat you want is exactly as the one in the S. But in the last couple years all we hear is complain that those flat seats are cheap and not what should be in a $100K+ car. I'm not sure people will quit complaining if Tesla does put exactly the same seats in the X now.

The only conclusion I can make is you can't please everyone every time. Still I think people should not make emotional decisions just because they think they were not treated or communicated right. Only the end product matters. I really couldn't care less if Tesla pampers me or showers me with all the up to date and accurate information or not. All I care is what the car is like when I finally take delivery of it.

In all fairness, there were few complaints about the next gen seats other than the tears not folding flat, which quickly quieted down when it was found that they fold nearly flat (almost as near flat as the standard seats). I think nobody would be complaining of those foldable rears survived into the X on pedestals.

 

[NigelM]

Funny thing is what you guys are saying now is the type of seat is absolutely essential and the only seat you want is exactly as the one in the S. But in the last couple years all we hear is complain that those flat seats are cheap and not what should be in a $100K+ car. I'm not sure people will quit complaining if Tesla does put exactly the same seats in the X now.

Never complained about the seats in our Sig S. Loved them when we got the car and stiil do 3 yrs later.

I'd happily take the same seats in an X so long as they're folding down to give cargo depth space.