Very Difficult decision..Canceling my Sig X reservation

[4SUPER9]

Do you really believe that people are saying they need the fold-flat because it's an EMOTIONAL response? People that are successful enough in life to purchase an X typically don't let their decisions be dictated by emotions.

I think dismissing this as just a result of not being pampered is unfair to a large number of people. I think it's more a matter of people know what they want and certain features are non-negotiable. I may not be canceling, but I respect my fellow forum members' decisions. They've proven themselves as critical thinkers many times on this forum, which unfortunately, I cannot say for everyone.

I don't think that is what he was saying. I believe he meant that how people feel about what Tesla said, promised, or how they were treated, may not have that much bearing on the final decision to buy or not. Their final decision is the based on the actual end product. In this case, it was towing capacity and folding seats for the most part. If, OTOH, they communicated very poorly, yet delivered a product that exceeded expectations, then it still wouldn't be the communication that affected the decision. Again, it would be the end product. Unfortunately for many here, this was not the case.

 

[bonnie]

I don't think that is what he was saying. I believe he meant that how people feel about what Tesla said, promised, or how they were treated, may not have that much bearing on the final decision to buy or not. Their final decision is the based on the actual end product. In this case, it was towing capacity and folding seats for the most part. If, OTOH, they communicated very poorly, yet delivered a product that exceeded expectations, then it still wouldn't be the communication that affected the decision. Again, it would be the end product. Unfortunately for many here, this was not the case.

I'd buy that IF there were not other posts indicating differently.

 

[Trnsl8r]

(Haven't read the entire thread, so apologies if this was covered...)

About the non-folding seats and all... When I was at the launch event, it looked like the seats did move up really, really close to the front seats, bordering on spooning them. Has anyone considered how much extra room the car would gain from traditional folding seats? Is it really that much? Just asking...

 

[kf93]

Having watched this thread for a while as well as the reactions to the launch event and the XC90 comparison threads, I see a few trends developing.

First I think the Model X failed at being a better SUV than the Model S is a sedan or whatever the exact quote is that Elon made. I think they have made a great minivan competitor, but not an SUV. Of course I realize that most SUV owners never take theirs off road or even put things on the roof, but the cargo flexibility and ability to swap between max cargo and max seating are what make the utility to a lot of people. So far in 6 months of ownership I've taken my GL350 loaded with 4-5 bikes, 5-7 people, and a huge thule roof box off road, forded a few rivers and been in areas with no cell phone coverage for days at a time. We did a lot of comparisons before we bought the GL and the X was right up there for a long while, but we quickly realized it wouldn't do all the things we needed for our family as our primary travel car and camping vehicle.

That's what brings me to my main point. I see two camps here on the forums and they both have a very valid argument. The first are the S owners who are sold completely on EVs and will not consider any ICE as an alternative. The X is the only thing out there that big so it will have to do, or you'll stick with an S. The second camp haven't bought a Tesla yet, they have been looking and learning and are getting educated, but are more than willing to cross shop with MB, Volvo, the new Honda Pilot, Infinity hybrids, etc for their SUV needs. Tesla as a company needs sales to the second group in order to keep expanding, and I'm worried they came up short. If they had just made an electric MDX or GL or Cayenne then I think it would probably be an even bigger hit than the X. The doors are going to attract a lot of attention but they require a lot of engineering related compromise. I'm personally still on the fence because this will be the second car for the family, and we really just need an around town people and grocery hauler, so a used S would probably do fine and save me a ton of money.

 

[Mark Z]

...Has anyone considered how much extra room the car would gain from traditional folding seats?...

Eignteen inches is what I have read at some of the threads. The three second row seats act as a wall, preventing long objects from touching the driver and passenger seat. Because the second row is flexible (move the right seat back, for example) you could get some objects through the narrow space created, but it would be limited to thinner objects. The Six Seat Interior allows for 15" of width from hatch latch to the touch screen, but you lose the narrower center seat.

The ultimate solution is to allow all five rear seats to fold flat. I have suggested at both forums that the decorative high gloss black plastic seat back be removable in a future seat design. Folding carpeted seat backs could get the upright no-fold treatment by attaching the plastic backs to cover the carpet on the backs of the folding seats. Two interiors, one vehicle. It's just an idea that might keep the artistic designers and the buyers who need utility happy.

 

[Tam]

Is it really that much?

Informal measurements:

Model S rear trunk size is 78" so some people would skip hotels all together because their mattress fits nicely.

The first person who will get a free Model X has made videos on how to sleep in your Model S.

That is to compare with current Model X rear trunk length with second row spoons up to the first row: 60" .

The difference is shocking because folded down seat demonstration in the Prototype showed that you could fit all kinds of long bulky stuff: skis, 3 people and 3 surfboards...

Last week's demonstration showed that all inside stuff now are externalized: bicycles, skis, and if you want to bring your surfboards? Strap them to your trailer!

Want to bring your mattress? Good! Haul your trailer with you!

Last week was a very great demonstration of how you can externalize your 60" and longer cargo.

 

[mnx]

Having watched this thread for a while as well as the reactions to the launch event and the XC90 comparison threads, I see a few trends developing.

First I think the Model X failed at being a better SUV than the Model S is a sedan or whatever the exact quote is that Elon made. I think they have made a great minivan competitor, but not an SUV.

Why do keep people calling the X a minivan or a minivan competitor? Minivans have more cargo space than 90% SUV's/CUV's, you have plenty of flexibility with folding seats for cargo or removing them entirely also. You can *gasp* have a roof rack on a minivan as well. By this logic a minivan is a better SUV than most SUV's.

 

[NigelM]

(Haven't read the entire thread, so apologies if this was covered...)

About the non-folding seats and all... When I was at the launch event, it looked like the seats did move up really, really close to the front seats, bordering on spooning them. Has anyone considered how much extra room the car would gain from traditional folding seats? Is it really that much? Just asking...

It's actually close to 2' give or take an inch. Measured by people I know the lip of the rear to the back of the front seats was ~84" or 7', with the second row seats slid all the way forwards the distance to the closest part of the seats was ~60" or 5'. (I used the ~ sign deliberately but the measurers did use a proper tape measure).

Those measurements are of the flat cargo area bed and the 2nd row seats do tilt when moved forward, so there is capacity to lean something longer than 5' provided it's a flat item.

N.b. Tesla has not released any official measurements yet.

 

[andrewket]

Why do keep people calling the X a minivan or a minivan competitor? Minivans have more cargo space than 90% SUV's/CUV's, you have plenty of flexibility with folding seats for cargo or removing them entirely also. You can *gasp* have a roof rack on a minivan as well. By this logic a minivan is a better SUV than most SUV's.

In the US at least, imho a lot of people would be better served with a minivan over an SUV, but there is a negative "stigma" to them. When my wife and I got over ourselves many years ago when our kids were younger and bought a minivan, we commented after one day how convenient it was and that we really should have bought one earlier.

 

[CarlK]

I don't think that is what he was saying. I believe he meant that how people feel about what Tesla said, promised, or how they were treated, may not have that much bearing on the final decision to buy or not. Their final decision is the based on the actual end product. In this case, it was towing capacity and folding seats for the most part. If, OTOH, they communicated very poorly, yet delivered a product that exceeded expectations, then it still wouldn't be the communication that affected the decision. Again, it would be the end product. Unfortunately for many here, this was not the case.

Yes you're right. Anyone who does not get it could go watch the Seinfeld soup nazi episode to see what I meant. The only thing people (should) care is what kind of car is eventually parked in the garage.

In all fairness, there were few complaints about the next gen seats other than the tears not folding flat, which quickly quieted down when it was found that they fold nearly flat (almost as near flat as the standard seats). I think nobody would be complaining of those foldable rears survived into the X on pedestals.

I meant the original back seat in S that does fold flat. There were a lot of complains that it's too cheap looking/feeling for a luxury car. It turned out that op would have accepted exactly that seat for the X when I asked him in the TM forum. It's impossible to please everyone every time. You're dammed if you do and you're dammed if you don't.

 

[AlMc]

Yes you're right. Anyone who does not get it could go watch the Seinfeld soup nazi episode to see what I meant. The only thing people (should) care is what kind of car is eventually parked in the garage.






I meant the original back seat in S that does fold flat. There were a lot of complains that it's too cheap looking/feeling for a luxury car. It turned out that op would have accepted exactly that seat for the X when I asked him in the TM forum. It's impossible to please everyone every time. You're dammed if you do and you're dammed if you don't.

I am trying to figure out the Soup Nazi to TM comparison here...probably just me, so sorry.

As to the ONLY thing people should care about is what is in their garage: Not true: I want to park an EV SUV in my garage to replace the ICE SUV. To replace the ICE SUV it also needs to replace the function of the ICE SUV for my family. The currently offered one will be in many people's garage and fit those people's needs without compromise. The Ss in my garage do not compromise and easily replaced the ICE sedans there before them. The X, as offered, would be a compromise. So, should I 'take one for the EV team' and accept the compromise? Would you if it did not meet the needs of your family? If yes, you are a better person than I.

 

[CarlK]

I am trying to figure out the Soup Nazi to TM comparison here...probably just me, so sorry.

I go there for the soup. Everything else is secondary if no other place offers the same.

As to the ONLY thing people should care about is what is in their garage: Not true: I want to park an EV SUV in my garage to replace the ICE SUV. To replace the ICE SUV it also needs to replace the function of the ICE SUV for my family. The currently offered one will be in many people's garage and fit those people's needs without compromise. The Ss in my garage do not compromise and easily replaced the ICE sedans there before them. The X, as offered, would be a compromise. So, should I 'take one for the EV team' and accept the compromise? Would you if it did not meet the needs of your family? If yes, you are a better person than I.

Totally understand and agree. I made that comment because so many posters kept on lamenting that the final product is not what was "promised" (nothing has been promised) and what they have expected. That's totally irrelevant to what one can buy now. Make the decision based on what the car is now. When one becomes emotional the decision may not always be the best. When we think we punished the other guy because he was not fair we ended up punish ourselves as well. Life is never fair and will never be. The only thing one should do is to get the best you CAN get.

 

[Mark Z]

...The X, as offered, would be a compromise...

You are 100% right. Everyone who purchases a Model X is having to compromise. No one is getting the full utility of five or six folding seats. Those ordering six seats lose the utility of the seventh seat and it's built-in armrest. The only design that works 100% is to have all seats fold except the driver's seat and for the center seat to be removable to duplicate the new Six Seat Interior. Tesla Motors could call it Model U - for Utility.

 

[Cyclone]

I meant the original back seat in S that does fold flat. There were a lot of complains that it's too cheap looking/feeling for a luxury car. It turned out that op would have accepted exactly that seat for the X when I asked him in the TM forum. It's impossible to please everyone every time. You're dammed if you do and you're dammed if you don't.

While that is what you meant, it's not a fair comparison. The seats in the X are all of the next-gen variety. There were next-gen rears for the S for a period of time. The first few had strong bolsters and folded about one degree less than the standard seats. It was then updated to have less side bolstering and it folds equivalently to the standard rears. I think everyone would have absolutely ecstatic if these seats were mounted on pedestals on the X because everyone would get what they want. The seats made it into production for some cars, so it's puzzling why they weren't available for the X.

 

[NigelM]

I made that comment because so many posters kept on lamenting that the final product is not what was "promised" (nothing has been promised) and what they have expected.

Not sure you understand the meaning of 'lamenting'. In any case it's OK to be disappointed when Tesla shows us a car with a huge flat cargo space and invites us to put down $40k deposit, confirms the folding seats and cargo space in subsequent communications and a newsletter, and then surprises us all by saying "Hey no, we changed our mind but hope you like it still." That disappointment is perhaps hard for you to understand as you didn't put down a $40k deposit for 3 years.

When one becomes emotional the decision may not always be the best.

You keep saying this but I don't see anyone getting emotional in this thread.

 

[Owner]

In the US there is a negative stereotype against minivans. Minivans are associated with young children, babies and soccer moms. I have heard a lot of otherwise sane people with and without kids say outlandish things like "I'd never drive a minivan" or "I'd never be seen in a minivan". The stereotype elicits some very strong emotions in some people.

Ironically, full or medium sized Vans, and particularly old VW ones are "cool". I have a friend who is completely restoring one. She is spending a lot of time and money to do so. Ford Transit Vans are also acceptable, I know a couple who bought one just to haul around their large dog.

On a recent outdoors trip where I did sleep in the Tesla because of heavy rain, hail and wind made being in the tent uncomfortable, I was jealous of a friend who recently bought a mini van and converted it to a true camp mobile with a comfortable place to sleep 2 by removing all the seats.

So the X in its current configuration serves the large purpose that most people associate with mini-vans: hauling around a lot of very young children in car seats.

Why do keep people calling the X a minivan or a minivan competitor? Minivans have more cargo space than 90% SUV's/CUV's, you have plenty of flexibility with folding seats for cargo or removing them entirely also. You can *gasp* have a roof rack on a minivan as well. By this logic a minivan is a better SUV than most SUV's.

 

[ChadS]

I agree with mnx - minivans out-SUV a lot of SUVs. They tend to be cheaper, easier to get kids in and out of, get better mpg, and have more space. And you can still get AWD. Their main downside (very important to some, though it has never mattered to me) is usually towing.

If Tesla called the Model X a minivan, put sliding doors on it - and it had folding rear seats - I'd totally buy one. And Owner just described my wife - she would refuse to drive it. Win-win; it would be the first Tesla that I could keep for myself.

But, yeah unfortunately Owner described a lot of people. They would definitely sell fewer if they called it a minivan. I figure that is the main reason for the falcon wing doors; long ago Elon listed several drawbacks to SUVs, but the main one he listed for minivans was "style".

 

[CarlK]

Not sure you understand the meaning of 'lamenting'. In any case it's OK to be disappointed when Tesla shows us a car with a huge flat cargo space and invites us to put down $40k deposit, confirms the folding seats and cargo space in subsequent communications and a newsletter, and then surprises us all by saying "Hey no, we changed our mind but hope you like it still." That disappointment is perhaps hard for you to understand as you didn't put down a $40k deposit for 3 years.

I totally understand what some of you have been through and I wouldn't want that to happen to me, and I would never choose to put myself into that position in the first place. All these are done deals partly your fault and partly Tesla's. Either way it should not affect the final decision of deciding what is the best for you. That's all I was saying. Good if you could do that and it's your decision if you could not.

And you're still lamenting on how Tesla has mistreated you. Have you read the agreement when you signed up for the reservation?

You keep saying this but I don't see anyone getting emotional in this thread.

Hmmm.. you still don't see it? How about in the mirror?

I agree with mnx - minivans out-SUV a lot of SUVs. They tend to be cheaper, get better mpg, and have more space. And you can still get AWD. Their main downside (very important to some, though it has never mattered to me) is usually towing.

If Tesla called the Model X a minivan, put sliding doors on it - and it had folding rear seats - I'd totally buy one. And Owner just described my wife - she would refuse to drive it. Win-win.

Who knows? There was a minivan in the original Tesla plan.

 

[AlMc]

You are 100% right. Everyone who purchases a Model X is having to compromise. No one is getting the full utility of five or six folding seats. Those ordering six seats lose the utility of the seventh seat and it's built-in armrest. The only design that works 100% is to have all seats fold except the driver's seat and for the center seat to be removable to duplicate the new Six Seat Interior. Tesla Motors could call it Model U - for Utility.

To get a little philosophical...much of life is a compromise.

I get that you are happy enough with the X, as is, right out of the gate. To you, and those of similar thought, that is great. For me and my family there are several compromises with the X, as is. I could live with some of those....having to take the 'P', lower towing limit than Mr. Chen indicated in the not so distant past and even the falcon doors ( I would prefer regular doors as IMO that was one of the biggest causes for delays and may be delaying TM from accomplishing the mission statement).

However, taking the utility of foldable seats made it so that it could not replace the utility of the ICE SUV currently in my garage. That was a compromise that we decided we could not accept.

All first world issues....

 

[NigelM]

All these are done deals partly your fault and partly Tesla's.

Have you read the agreement when you signed up for the reservation?

Yup. It's my fault. I shouldn't have believed anything Tesla said; you're absolutely right, I guess seeing as you have such clarity of foresight you didn't put down a deposit of any sort as that would have been nuts. Oh wait.....