Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500,000 Vehicles Over Emissions Software

[gg_got_a_tesla]

I should point out that however, after VW recalls the car then it will likely be legal to drive. It's not that hard to fix, as the issue is mainly with the software. The main effect on resale value is that the performance/fuel efficiency may be reduced and some of the emissions related parts may wear out faster than VW has indicated (there is speculation that is the main reason for why VW cheated).

If the performance/fuel efficiency/part durability is reduced post-recall, shouldn't owners be compensated for it monetarily to make up for increased operating costs and loss of resale value?

Really disappointed with VW. I've had non-Diesel VW models: a 1999 gas Passat and now, a 2015 e-Golf, both of which I've been and am fond of.

 

[dsm363]

I had a Jetta TDI I bought specifically because it was a 'clean diesel' but sold it when the Model S arrived. Guess it was one of the first cars they did this with.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Give me a break. GM's ignition key defect was a lethal defect and it should have been given immediate attention. More than a hundred people died and GM was let off with a slap on the wrist. It's funny how it is mostly foreign companies like BP, BNP, Toyota etc. that get hit by massive fines and bad publicity by puffed up US officials while US companies get an easy ride. Perhaps it's the fault of European and Asian countries to let the US get away with it. For each of these US stunts American companies abroad should be hit in an equal manner. There are plenty of justifications for doing so. Massive misconduct by US financial companies and the blatant violations of data protection and privacy rules by "tech" companies, just for a start.

Look at the GM timeline. The issue occurred with cars under "old GM" and GM fixed the issue with the 2006/2007 model years. "New GM" initiated the 2014 recall after the new CEO found out about the issue, before there was any media/public attention on the issue nor any pushing by the NHTSA. GM took complete ownership of the issue, fully admitted they hid the issue, and cooperated with federal investigators. This is essentially the same as a criminal turning himself in and getting a plea bargain where the defendant admits full fault with the goal of reducing their sentence.
http://money.cnn.com/infographic/pf/autos/gm-recall-timeline/

Contrast this with the Toyota incident. The issue was first uncovered by the media/public. Toyota initially denied full responsibility of the issue and tried to minimize it (saying it was only the floor mat issue when they knew of the sticky pedal issue also). The Toyota CEO also initially declined to meet with a federal investigation panel. It took multiple months of back and forth and investigation before Toyota was forced to admit they hid the issue.
http://money.cnn.com/autos/storysupplement/toyota_timeline/?iid=EL

As for VW the comparison is not one to one. As others point out, this is an unprecedented case where they had the explicit goal to defraud the US government (and also the car buying public). The worst thing is that it was uncovered by the US government, not VW admitting it first. It is not simply a cover-up of a mistake/accident where it is not always 100% clear that the defect is there (NHTSA did do an investigation of the GM issue back in 2007 but their own officers voted that there was no trend and didn't follow up with action). It also affects every car in the recall 100% (whereas in GM and Toyota cases only a subset of cars saw symptoms).

 

[miimura]

This is not the only loophole in emissions regulations. I have seen many modern cars belch un-burned hydrocarbons when at wide open throttle accelerating onto the freeway or up a long incline. The regulations should cover all normal operating conditions of the vehicle. Period.

 

[nwdiver]

This is not the only loophole in emissions regulations. I have seen many modern cars belch un-burned hydrocarbons when at wide open throttle accelerating onto the freeway or up a long incline. The regulations should cover all normal operating conditions of the vehicle. Period.

Wasn't a 'loophole' it was an intentional and malicious violation of regulations by VW... most of the vehicles you see on the road belching visible smoke are either illegally modified or require maintenance.

 

[sub]

I don't care if the company is U.S. Based or foreign. Burn them all. I will never buy a GM vehicle because I think they are garbage and the only ones I would consider destroy out environment. The ignition issue only cemented my opinion of GM. However, I don't think anyone here thinks that GM INTENTIONALLY designed a faulty ignition switch to kill people. That doesn't necessarily make The GM crime less significant however, I just wanted to make that distinction. One was a cover up of an unintentional mistake (GM)and the other (VW) was a pemeditated act.

VW sold these vehicles as "clean" diesel, which means a percentage of people bought the cars based on their concerns for the environment. How many people wouldn't want their money back if for no other reason than to recoup the depreciation?

i have a 335D BMW for performance and Environmental reasons, if it's found that BMW has pulled the same stunt I'll gladly make them pay.

 

[Krugerrand]

I have a question: What does the EPA do with the 'fine' money they collect?

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

I have a question: What does the EPA do with the 'fine' money they collect?

Had the same question. Goes straight into the US Treasury if these posts are accurate:

https://www.facebook.com/EPA/posts/257715464254869

 

[eye.surgeon]

God bless the EPA.

Maybe they could use the VW fine to pay for their own environmental holocaust.

 

[jgs]

One other point -- some people are contrasting VW's transgression to GM's and minimizing VW because they "just" defeated a pollution control whereas GM "killed people". Let us not forget why those pollution controls exist -- NOx injures and kills. Statistically instead of in nice neat packaged-for-TV tragedies, yes. But it still kills.

So VW "killed people" too. I will leave it to the epidemiologists (and lawyers, probably) to figure out who killed more. But VW did it on purpose.

 

[eye.surgeon]

Give me a break. GM's ignition key defect was a lethal defect and it should have been given immediate attention. More than a hundred people died and GM was let off with a slap on the wrist. It's funny how it is mostly foreign companies like BP, BNP, Toyota etc. that get hit by massive fines and bad publicity by puffed up US officials while US companies get an easy ride. Perhaps it's the fault of European and Asian countries to let the US get away with it. For each of these US stunts American companies abroad should be hit in an equal manner. There are plenty of justifications for doing so. Massive misconduct by US financial companies and the blatant violations of data protection and privacy rules by "tech" companies, just for a start.

Just about everything you stated here is factually incorrect. Just to name one, the company responsible for the ignition key defect no longer existed as a legal entity when the problem came to light.

 

[Krugerrand]

Had the same question. Goes straight into the US Treasury if these posts are accurate:

https://www.facebook.com/EPA/posts/257715464254869

Ah, okay. Ty. So....how much money does the US Treasury currently need? :biggrin:

 

[jerry33]

Ah, okay. Ty. So....how much money does the US Treasury currently need? :biggrin:

$16.3 trillion.

 

[Krugerrand]

$16.3 trillion.

Right, duh. I predict a fine closer to the 16 billion dollar end than the 1 billion dollar end.

 

[nwdiver]

Right, duh. I predict a fine closer to the 16 billion dollar end than the 1 billion dollar end.

Good thing the purpose here is to punish VW... not fund the government... I think a $16B fine sends a pretty strong message :wink:

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I have a question: What does the EPA do with the 'fine' money they collect?

Goes to the US treasury. Which is logical, since the EPA is taxpayer funded.

 

[beeeerock]

Just to name one, the company responsible for the ignition key defect no longer existed as a legal entity when the problem came to light.

I'm not sure how that really changes anything... I can declare personal bankruptcy and carry on tomorrow as if nothing happened yesterday. But my moral culpability doesn't really disappear. In the case of GM, it's not like GM is some corner grocery store, owned by a Korean family who then sold it to a Pakistani family... and the moral decisions of the former were obviously not transferred to the latter. GM made a legal change but it's unlikely the old guard all disappeared and the corporate moral stance changed. They hid dangerous decisions, same as VW. Corporate morality is the same worldwide - or should I say 'corporate immorality'... I can't give either of them a free pass.

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks. This was what I was getting at. Economically that's a HUGE value loss for the owners of these cars.

That remains to be seen. I don't think there is an analogous case to cite here. The class action potential would be huge. I suspect it's more likely that the actual emissions will be grandfathered in, offset by big fines to the manufacturer. Or changes will be made to ensure the recall work doesn't impact performance (potentially at a bigger cost to the manufacturer than simply removing the programming and crippling the car).

This could blow up into a huge turd-storm very quickly, especially if the owners are perceived as being the ones getting screwed... I think it'll take quite some time to settle out!

 

[vgrinshpun]

Good thing the purpose here is to punish VW... not fund the government... I think a $16B fine sends a pretty strong message :wink:

Another really good way to send a message to automakers is to use these funds to eliminate limitations (200K per manufacturer) on EV rebates and to fund a national network of fast DC chargers.

First, by promoting EV adoption these measures can offset the environmental damage done by VW. Second, it will encourage auto manufacturers to hopefully take more active role in developing and bringing to market BEVs.

 

[stopcrazypp]

That remains to be seen. I don't think there is an analogous case to cite here. The class action potential would be huge. I suspect it's more likely that the actual emissions will be grandfathered in, offset by big fines to the manufacturer. Or changes will be made to ensure the recall work doesn't impact performance (potentially at a bigger cost to the manufacturer than simply removing the programming and crippling the car).

This could blow up into a huge turd-storm very quickly, especially if the owners are perceived as being the ones getting screwed... I think it'll take quite some time to settle out!

Very hard to tell right now. Unlike the Ford/Hyundai cases where it was just misreported fuel economy but the cars still met federal emissions standards, this is a completely different case. I'm not sure EPA will let them off with just the fine and no recall action. CARB certainly will not. Most likely if they can't come up with a fix that won't impact performance, they will just give a lump sum settlement to owners.

 

[beeeerock]

Most likely if they can't come up with a fix that won't impact performance, they will just give a lump sum settlement to owners.

Or *TRY* to give such a payment! I can already see the advertisements on TV now, sponsored by law firms, wanting to add you to a class action suit. A settlement would have to account for loss of performance AND reduction in resale value... etc. Assigning a number everyone could be happy about sounds just about impossible to me! :biggrin:

Get your popcorn bowl ready - the show is about to begin!