Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500,000 Vehicles Over Emissions Software

[FlasherZ]

Thanks for posting Rob!

This is alarming if true that it was 'engineered' to falsify. I can't even imagine directing my engineering team to even think of such a thing. Amazing

It happens all the time, across industries - we had a bunch of IT "benchmarking scandals"- just a sampling here:

Intel finally agrees to pay $15 to Pentium 4 owners over AMD Athlon benchmarking shenanigans | ExtremeTech
Futuremark confirms nVidia is cheating in benchmark | Games | Geek.com

This one seems particularly egregious, but I'll bet they have some type of excuse as to the legality of them doing this.

 

[lolachampcar]

The EPA has perfected dealing with tuning companies that alter code to falsify certain information. For example, Software Verification is a required element of modern ECUs. This is basically a robust checksum which can be requested over the OBDii port and whose return is tied to a specific software release. When the SVN does not match the one for the specific version of software released by the manufacturer, the tester knows the software has been altered. These alterations are almost always calibration table edits to improve performance.

The point of the post is not that the EPA is aware of, and interested in, software modifications but that they take a very dim view of altering code to circumvent the process. Tuning companies are often fined heavily on a per unit bases for making these types of changes ($1,000 per vehicle for falsifying an SVN return - not changing the calibration) with these fines standing up to legal challenge. I can just imagine how the EPA would react to a manufacturer knowingly working with their vendor (likely Bosch) to purposefully circumvent emissions standards. We've likely not heard the last of this one.

Ouch!!!!

 

[renim]

Thanks for your links and findings!

It's a very American phenomenon, but it's an interesting thought if there were some class-action suits against VW in the US, as you say from groups of people for example non-smokers living in big cities who develop emphysema. It would put the search light on it in a painful way and VW would now be likened to the tobacco companies and oil companies - something they deserve as this has been highly deceitful and misleading.

there will be class action, even if only from lawyers choosing to represent car owners who feel there is a vehicle depreciation issue.

The EU manufacturers are masters of targeting synthetic tests for an optimized result (there are very strong reasons in the EU to do so) all the way to special elevated tests sites in Spain with low air pressure and billiard table smooth track. But this software trick from VW, is akin to a manufacture implementing it own rollin' coal trick, but for NOx. Its going to get the US EPA really riled up.

I would add, EPA tests bag all the gas from the exhaust, practically speaking the vehicle must be stationary for those tests. (various systems in the car would know the vehicle was not moving (ie airbag sensors, ABS systems, etc))

 

[winfield100]

I suspect the "cheat" only works at the specific conditions/engine speeds of the emission tests - unfortunately for VW, I don't think turning it "always on" would solve the problem. Will be very interesting to see how this plays out...

will VW have to buy 482,000 ZEV credits from perhaps, TSLA or elsewhere, as one of their punishments...

 

[ScepticMatt]

Silly title.

It's not a "hack" if it's planned from the start.

 

[jgs]

We often hear about how dealers are important to "stick up for the little guy". I wonder if dealerships will have legal cause for action against VWAG?

 

[RubberToe]

Fines, Prison, Endless Legal Hell, Lather, Rinse, Repeat. Hopefully this turns into the largest fine ever assessed in US history, and perhaps even a forced exit from the US market. That might have some impact.

I would never purchase a car from a company that intentionally did this. Done.

RT

 

[Chickenlittle]

will VW have to buy 482,000 ZEV credits from perhaps, TSLA or elsewhere, as one of their punishments...

Worse than that. Read that fix is to have power limitation at all times not just during emissions tests. I suspect they will have to buy back these cars or offer owners some financial incentive to keep their cars since they will not have the advertised power. Imagine if your driving a car for 5 years and all of a sudden a governor is put in to keep speed and acceleration down

 

[Xenoilphobe]

If we would just adopt the european standard they wouldn't have to build a work around. I love the VW diesels but with all the crap that the EPA makes them add it turns a great product into an expensive one with little gain in clean air performance.

 

[mspohr]

If we would just adopt the european standard they wouldn't have to build a work around. I love the VW diesels but with all the crap that the EPA makes them add it turns a great product into an expensive one with little gain in clean air performance.

From the news article, it does sound like there is a significant hit to clean air performance ("up to 40 times nitrogen oxide" among other things).

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Since VW went to the extreme measure of inserting code to circumvent testing procedures, I can only conclude that they could not make the cars work properly and meet emissions standards. If so, how will they fix the cars?
It sounds like in order to make them meet the emission standards, they may have "drivability", starting or other issues. So, if they start "fixing" the cars to meet standards, I can imaging that there may be a lot of irate owners who suddenly have cars which don't work well. This could lead to them having to buy back these cars... potentially at a cost as large as the potential fines ($18 billion).

 

[Discoducky]

Another thing comes to mind is if this has ever been done in the automotive industry where an automotive company wrote code and implemented in production to specifically circumvent critical systems testing? It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the course of several years I'm sure, but IMO VW should be held accountable for something so egregious. I hope the FDA makes an example of this case and full fines are pursued to set a firm precedence.

 

[Bangor Bob]

Another thing comes to mind is if this has ever been done in the automotive industry where an automotive company wrote code and implemented in production to specifically circumvent critical systems testing? It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the course of several years I'm sure, but IMO VW should be held accountable for something so egregious. I hope the FDA makes an example of this case and full fines are pursued to set a firm precedence.

There have been rumors for years that several manufacturers have code in the ECUs to recognize NCAP and EPA fuel economy drive cycle testing and adjust accordingly. Adjusting engine behavior to pass emissions seems to be something new.

What are the odds that VW's US vehicles are just the tip of this particular iceberg?

 

[mspohr]

Another thing comes to mind is if this has ever been done in the automotive industry where an automotive company wrote code and implemented in production to specifically circumvent critical systems testing? It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the course of several years I'm sure, but IMO VW should be held accountable for something so egregious. I hope the FDA makes an example of this case and full fines are pursued to set a firm precedence.

As much as I would like to see the FDA involved (it is a health issue, after all), I believe that the appropriate agencies are the EPA and California Air Resources Board (CARB).

 

[RobStark]

If we would just adopt the european standard they wouldn't have to build a work around. I love the VW diesels but with all the crap that the EPA makes them add it turns a great product into an expensive one with little gain in clean air performance.

If we adopt the European standard we will have NOx in Los Angeles on par with Paris.

F that. There is more than enough childhood asthma and pulmonary diseases.

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I can just imagine how the EPA would react to a manufacturer knowingly working with their vendor (likely Bosch) to purposefully circumvent emissions standards. We've likely not heard the last of this one.

Ouch!!!!

It is rumored on appliance enthusiast sites(yeah, I know!) that Bosch has a similar defeat device for laundry and dishwashers to circumvent water efficiency rules.

Software recognizes it is being tested and uses so little water it can not possibly get dishes/laundry clean. But the DoE does not test for cleaning effectiveness so it does not matter. Once in homes water usage goes way up.

 

[Johan]

Please enlighten me: the way these cars actually are, does it render them illegal or should they just have been labeled and perhaps taxed differently?

 

[beeeerock]

Worse than that. Read that fix is to have power limitation at all times not just during emissions tests. I suspect they will have to buy back these cars or offer owners some financial incentive to keep their cars since they will not have the advertised power. Imagine if your driving a car for 5 years and all of a sudden a governor is put in to keep speed and acceleration down

Yeah... we've got a '15 A3 TDI in the garage next to the MS. If the performance drops or it becomes in any way less car than it is today, we'll be looking for them to take it back.

However, I have no idea whether this whole fiasco will extend to Canada as well.

By the time it all gets settled, any buy-back could, and likely would, morph into a Model 3 purchase... for us at least.

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Please enlighten me: the way these cars actually are, does it render them illegal or should they just have been labeled and perhaps taxed differently?

The press release I read said they were safe and entirely re-saleable. It's a (costly) technicality between the manufacturer and government.

 

[jerry33]

If we would just adopt the european standard they wouldn't have to build a work around.

The Diesel industry got the EU to lower the standards until their polluting cars would pass. I'd hate to see that happen here. I had a VW TDI. The most disappointing car ever. Maintenance costs were 22 cents per mile, engine blew at 80K (covered by warranty so not part of the 22 cents per mile), couldn't go a month without the headlights burning out, one year battery life, the list goes on.

 

[dsm363]

Thanks for posting Rob!

This is alarming if true that it was 'engineered' to falsify. I can't even imagine directing my engineering team to even think of such a thing. Amazing

Until an actual real person is charged with a crime these things will be more likely to happen. Typically a fine is imposed and the company can continue along without any problem.

 

[ggr]

I hope the FDA makes an example of this case and full fines are pursued to set a firm precedence.

Just because one of the emissions is Nitrous Oxide, doesn't mean that the FDA gets involved

 

[RobStark]

Until an actual real person is charged with a crime these things will be more likely to happen. Typically a fine is imposed and the company can continue along without any problem.

If the fines are closer to $1B then VW Board will see it as the cost of doing business.

If the fines are closer to $18B then the VW Board needs to re budget R&D and CapEX. That will definitely get their attention.