mknox
Well-Known Member
Curious to know why jurisdictions with "smog test" requirements didn't catch this, and why they wouldn't going forward.
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Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500,000 Vehicles Over Emissions Software
- Thread starter hockeythug
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Curious to know why jurisdictions with "smog test" requirements didn't catch this, and why they wouldn't going forward.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
In many jurisdictions the smog test does not kick in until the car is a couple years old. Also for many of the new cars the test procedure does not require a probe at the exhaust but rather reading the codes from the OBD II port. That's what VW took advantage of.
Smog just means a sniffer. If dyno'd, as they do in MA, VW's cheat also supposedly read the idle rear wheels, and then activated the filters. They passed this parameter in all states, since none actually go out on the road.
I'd guess the police raids are indeed likely to empower labor, to deny VW management's calling the shots on how much labor, and/or R&D, is cut. It is speculation, but I doubt VW is having friends in government help vindicate them. This is serious, and I think suggests genuine hostility.
WSJ: "The prosecutor’s office in Braunschweig, which is overseeing the criminal probe, said three state attorneys and 50 state police officers raided Volkswagen offices and private homes. A spokeswoman said the initial investigation is focusing on “several people.”"
mspohr
Well-Known Member
Do you see Stranded Assets?
Another interesting article in The Guardian today.
Cars, aviation, steel ... the stranded assets risk spreads far beyond fossil fuel firms | Andrew Simms | Environment | The Guardian
Cars, aviation, steel ... the stranded assets risk spreads far beyond fossil fuel firms
VW is paying the price of revelations that ‘clean diesel’ is as much a lie as ‘clean coal’ - in a low-carbon economy 100s of energy intensive industries will have to reinvent themselves or become similarly exposed
Responding to the emissions rigging crisis embroiling the German car maker Volkswagen, the Financial Times speculated that Europe’s focus on diesel “may have driven its car industry up a technological dead end”.
In an article on why the Volkswagen scandal was worse than the one which destroyed the energy company, Enron, David Bach of Yale Management School, pointed out how “clean diesel”, it turns out, is as much a lie as “clean coal”. Politicians and regulators allowed themselves to be swept up in that lie to the point where it destroyed the reputation of Europe’s economic powerhouse for straight-talking, technical efficiency almost overnight, and in a sector, car making, synonymous with ‘brand Germany’.
Another interesting article in The Guardian today.
Cars, aviation, steel ... the stranded assets risk spreads far beyond fossil fuel firms | Andrew Simms | Environment | The Guardian
Cars, aviation, steel ... the stranded assets risk spreads far beyond fossil fuel firms
VW is paying the price of revelations that ‘clean diesel’ is as much a lie as ‘clean coal’ - in a low-carbon economy 100s of energy intensive industries will have to reinvent themselves or become similarly exposed
Responding to the emissions rigging crisis embroiling the German car maker Volkswagen, the Financial Times speculated that Europe’s focus on diesel “may have driven its car industry up a technological dead end”.
In an article on why the Volkswagen scandal was worse than the one which destroyed the energy company, Enron, David Bach of Yale Management School, pointed out how “clean diesel”, it turns out, is as much a lie as “clean coal”. Politicians and regulators allowed themselves to be swept up in that lie to the point where it destroyed the reputation of Europe’s economic powerhouse for straight-talking, technical efficiency almost overnight, and in a sector, car making, synonymous with ‘brand Germany’.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
It was far more sophisticated than simply telling another computer that 'yup, everything is ok'... The car actually changed its emissions control from high performance/emissions to low performance/emissions when it 'thought' it was getting tested.
Meanwhile, in Denmark... Teslas Hit by 180% Danish Tax on Cars as Green Goals Ditched - Bloomberg Business
Honestly, I think VW has done something worse, if we step back a little bit. Clean diesel, as per current NOx regulations is achievable. It exists. VW simply didn't reach for it. Coal did. That's an important, apolitical distinction.
Since this really isn't about CO2, YET, we can make this separation. As CO2 gram/miles gets below what 40-50mpg's can do, and as CO2 million ton / TWh hit state electric sectors, we will progress much further into "no such thing".
Just a technical footnote, on the chronological roll-out of rules.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
That's true. They did both. That way even if some places used a probe, VW won't be caught as long the car is tested on the dyno. I guess VW didn't expect the car to be tested on the road.
bollar
Disgruntled Member
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
This does not sound like VW is taking full responsibility...
http://news.yahoo.com/u-chief-knew-v...--finance.html
Volkswagen's US boss blames 'individuals' for cheating
Reuters By Andreas Cremer and David Morgan
http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4554474/collins-engineer-grills-vw-horn
http://news.yahoo.com/u-chief-knew-v...--finance.html
Volkswagen's US boss blames 'individuals' for cheating
Reuters By Andreas Cremer and David Morgan
http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4554474/collins-engineer-grills-vw-horn
mknox
Well-Known Member
Interesting. Here in Ontario, Canada they used to do the dyno test with the probe in the exhaust but recently moved to a simple OBD II code scan.
adiggs
Well-Known Member
Same here in Oregon (move from dyno test to computer reading). I think that the defeat device will pass both tests as the dyno has one set of wheels moving, and uses the lack of movement of the other wheels as an in-car test for "I'm being tested, use the I'm being tested mode".
mspohr
Well-Known Member
It appears that after more testing that four more automobile manufacturers have joined the list of diesel cars which do not meet emissions testing.
Four more carmakers join diesel emissions row | Environment | The Guardian
Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Mazda and Mitsubishi have joined the growing list of manufacturers whose diesel cars are known to emit significantly more pollution on the road than in regulatory tests, according to data obtained by the Guardian.
“The issue is a systemic one” across the industry, said Nick Molden, whose company Emissions Analytics tested the cars. The Guardian revealed last week that diesel cars from Renault, Nissan, Hyundai, Citroen, Fiat, Volvo and Jeep all pumped out significantly more NOx in more realistic driving conditions. NOx pollution is at illegal levels in many parts of the UK and is believed to have caused many thousands of premature deaths and billions of pounds in health costs.
It also appears that 3.6 European VW diesels may need costly repairs to meet even the lax European emission standards.
VW scandal: 3.6m European vehicles need major changes | Business | The Guardian
Almost half of the Volkswagen cars in Europe affected by the diesel emissions scandal require major hardware changes – including the installation of new parts – in order to meet pollution standards.
The revelation by the German transport ministry that 3.6m cars in Europe require hardware changes underlines the scale and expense of the repairs that will be required as a result of the scandal.
It appears that "clean diesel" is a technological dead end which has not delivered the promised benefits and has no future. The investment in clean diesel will probably need to be written off as a failure. In retrospect, it is easy to see that it would have been much better to make the investment in inherently clean electric vehicles rather than try to patch up an inherently dirty fossil fuel engine.
I think the first two articles are muddling things. If the European tests are a poor representation of actual driving conditions, I am not sure why you would hold a manufacturer accountable for anything other than compliance with crappy standard. If Europeans what better air, exercise the political will to propose and enforce stricter standards. That is different from VW who worked to purposely circumvent the standards.
jgs
Active Member
I agree that the VW violation is about the most egregious possible and it muddies the waters to include manufacturers who "merely" gamed the tests without actually cheating (within the very carefully -- and favorably -- written rules of those tests). On the other hand, it will be interesting to see if the EU (and for that matter US) laws are written such that the manufacturer is home free as long as they pass these silly tests, or not. It's all in the letter of the law (and how good your lawyers, spin doctors and lobbyists are).
At the least I would imagine that (so far) VW is the only one looking down the barrel of felony charges.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
Yes, the two articles are about slightly different things.
The first is about the fact that even cars which have passed the European tests are emitting far more pollution than was anticipated under real world conditions. It assumes that there is no intentional deception (but maybe some test prep).
The second is that on the cars where VW "defeat software" is installed, expensive hardware changes will be necessary even to meet the lax European standards.
Clearly the testing and the standards are inadequate. In Europe, this seems to be at least partly due to the influence of the auto companies who cannot or don't want to make cars conform.
The larger issue is that diesel (and even gasoline) are dirty fuels and industry may have reached the point where it won't be possible to achieve much of a reduction in pollution. In other words, some think that fossil fuel engines have "hit the wall" and it will be necessary to turn to other technologies (such as electric motors) to move forward.
The bottom line is that auto companies will eventually need to stop making fossil fuel engines, thus leaving a lot of stranded assets in fossil fuel technology and assets. Climate scientists have been saying for years that we need to leave a large portion of fossil fuel proven reserves in the ground... thus stranded assets. That also goes for all of the technologies and equipment which uses fossil fuels.
Rpgonzalez
Member
the only thing I don't necessarily agree with mathematically is comparing the TDI's maximum NOx violation with the useful life standard of other vehicles. Of course correct me if I'm wrong, I'm pretty sure the EPA's limits don't pertain to rural uphill driving conditions. The VW TDI engine typically violated the upper limits by just a little. I saw somewhere that during regular light road driving you could round down to .7g/mi while keeping 1 significant digit. The maximum amount of NOx found pertained to the VW traveling in a rural uphill environment. That's what I find questionable about all of these backwoods emissions testings on all of the diesel vehicles, because of course you can max out a vehicle above and EPA numerical value that is in probably an average throughout all operating conditions.
OK, so maybe I am wrong there. However the old EPA regulations that were completely phased out by 2009 had much more lax emissions standards for NOx on the order of 10-30x. The poster you replied to was describing what I envision about these large diesel burners. 2000-2005 super duty f350's which without a doubt in my mind were producing the same NOx values cruising along as a TDI makes underload. Ok, it's not saying much, but to compare the max tdi's NOx emissions to the incredibly stringent .2g/mi (effective 2015?) for the large trucks is a little overboard.
If assuming that the EPA limits are an average of all operating conditions, I assure you that the TDI does NOT produce as much NOx as 10 f150's.
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Oops, I meant .07g/mi
Rpgonzalez
Member
I went back and the low end was indeed .7g/mi. The HIGH end of real world testing yielded 1.5g/mi of NOx emission which would yield an average of 1.1g/mi.
I STILL reject the idea of comparing real world values with the EPA test cycle. But if you want to compromise, then Ill give you 1 TDI = 5 NEW ford 150's
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