The EPA itself refers to these tests as 75˚F tests (to contrast with its 20˚F cold weather tests), because that's the nominal temperature. Of course, there is a temp range allowed, and my personal opinion is that this range is too broad and should be reduced to something like ±5˚F.
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Wh/km (or mi) / range grossly mis-advertised, if not fraudulent... srsly.
- Thread starter yogi799
- Start date
I recently bought a used 2019 M3 LR (early feb), and before reading your posts and a few other posts, limited, I was certain my car was just broken. But it does appear these cars are beyond terrible in the winter. Out in the Vancouver Canada area since early Feb the temps have been hovering in the -5 to +7 celsius (23F-44F), my energy rating while driving, short 7km trips to work, minimal grade change. Ive noted below +5 there is a significant drop off in actual range no matter how I drive, at best I get 70%, more often I get 40-50%. Cabin temp at 20C (68F). Energy usage rating typically is in the high 200s-low 300s wh/km. One day, it was 7C and I got around 180wh/km, and today it was bright and sunny, 9C, I drove exactly the same as I always do, same route, still hit a few lights, cabin temp was 20C, no changes and I got 89wh/km. I drive slower than a grandma and have it in chill mode, no crazy accelerations minus a time or two if running late, and no faster than 65km/h (40mi/h). Like you I'm waiting on warmer weather to see how this stacks up. In addition to me driving I have used FSD on the trip and the wh/km are nearly identical on the low temp days. It's definitely very frustrating because I did do as much research as I possibly could. Oddly none of my friends with the car report much lower numbers and I had a loaner 2023 M3 for 1 week as I dropped the car off for a trunk leak, its efficiency was night and day compared to mine, minimal loss overnight and driving range was nearly perfect accuracy, even when cold soaked. I summed up the difference to the heat pump and maybe some other changes. but it's definitely terrible performance and there needs to be either, better warranty protection, or better education for the consumer. I was coming in understanding that it was possible to have 30% loss, but having my range drop 20km on a 7km drive, multiple times over is definitely concerning. However at the same time, my range only dropped 3km vs the 7km driven on the 9C day. I'm still learning and trying to figure this out. But just wanted to say I'm happy you're sharing your thoughts
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
I think so. You expect cabin heating to be free
Nothing wrong with the car or Tesla. Seriously
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I did a winter trip this year, and definitely noticed that the card did not function as well in a subzero (C) trip.
I did OK with respect to range, but they were definitely penalty for that as well, the bigger issue dealt more with charging the vehicle, which was tremendously slow compared to anything above 50°F.
I did OK with respect to range, but they were definitely penalty for that as well, the bigger issue dealt more with charging the vehicle, which was tremendously slow compared to anything above 50°F.
The way to prevent slow charging is to set the supercharger as a destination so the car heats the battery. Also, charge at arrival before the night, not in the morning with a frozen battery. If you do these well you should see no difference in charging speed.
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
Just as a point of reference - I took delivery at the end of July, 2020. I've averaged 279 Wh/mi over 32,000 miles and 3 MN winters. (the 3rd winter isn't over, so nominally the average should improve slightly with warmer weather.) 75 kWh ÷ 279 Wh/mi means an actual average range of 269 miles.
I've driven my M3 many times to and from our Condo to Clinton BC in Sept through to November 2022. There's quite an elevation change and lots of hill climbs on that route through the Fraser Canyon. My warm weather range was close to the EPA/NRC Hwy range estimate (~370 KM, IIRC). In November, with some snow and much colder weather, the range fell by about 10%. I used the stock ASR tires throughout; the car handles very well in snow.
We have a winter home in SE Arizona, near the NM border; we're at 4500ft (1400m) elevation so it will often go below 0C at night. I was able to range test the car on near empty state Hwys and at ~110 - 100km/hr my actual range varied (100-50% and then estimated) from 254 to 266 (410 - 430km) miles which is better than the EPA Hwy numbers, IIRC. Temperatures varied from a 5C to 15C average, but that had little impact on range (temp mostly effected DCFC speeds). I typically preconditioned the battery and car for about 30min prior to departure,
Freeway driving at ~82mph (130km/h) will cut range to about 160-190 miles (~280km).
I keep the car in Chill Mode and use AP or CC as much as possible. Maintaining a steady speed is critical to getting good range.
On our ~2200 mile (3500km) return trip (Portal AZ to Winslow AZ and then mostly I-40 and I-5) , with the AP set to 5mph over the limit on undivided hwys and +9 on freeways, we averaged 259wh/mile.
We have a winter home in SE Arizona, near the NM border; we're at 4500ft (1400m) elevation so it will often go below 0C at night. I was able to range test the car on near empty state Hwys and at ~110 - 100km/hr my actual range varied (100-50% and then estimated) from 254 to 266 (410 - 430km) miles which is better than the EPA Hwy numbers, IIRC. Temperatures varied from a 5C to 15C average, but that had little impact on range (temp mostly effected DCFC speeds). I typically preconditioned the battery and car for about 30min prior to departure,
Freeway driving at ~82mph (130km/h) will cut range to about 160-190 miles (~280km).
I keep the car in Chill Mode and use AP or CC as much as possible. Maintaining a steady speed is critical to getting good range.
On our ~2200 mile (3500km) return trip (Portal AZ to Winslow AZ and then mostly I-40 and I-5) , with the AP set to 5mph over the limit on undivided hwys and +9 on freeways, we averaged 259wh/mile.
I am a noob when it comes about Tesla, I only now start to learn the ropes, but I am not a noob about EV. In fact since 2014 I have no idea what gasoline prices are. I will give my $0.02 about the range in winter vs summer :
1. All EV lose, in winter, about 30 to 40% range vs EPA. Those who have a heat-pump can see about 10-15% range loss if the temperature is above -10C (14F)
2. The range is dictated by : Terrain - Temperature - Technique (driving)
3. Tesla range numbers are NOT reflecting the reality. kW/km or kW/mi are a lot more indication of what the range of the car might be.
Now, in the case of the OP, the RWD LFP he has it is known that it doesn't perform great in very cold weather IF the battery isn’t warm, I may say hot. Especially in 15-30 mins drives, that can be as much as 5 to 15 km drives, in a busy day. And before anyone starts to throw apples to me, let me tell you that I just ordered a 2023 RWD LFP M3.
But I did it after watching everything that was to watch about the LFP batteries.
So, for the Tesla he has to be more efficient, thus, to have a better range, there are two things that should be done:
1. Disable Sentry while at home, it is useless.
2. Precondition the car before driving away for at least 20 mins (to give enough time to the battery to warm up)
Although the first is easy to do, the second one involves about 4 kWh more added to the daily consumption from the Power utility. Now, question is, if you drive 20 miles a day, is it worth spending 4 kWh more ? IMO no. if you drive 150 miles a day, it does.
1. All EV lose, in winter, about 30 to 40% range vs EPA. Those who have a heat-pump can see about 10-15% range loss if the temperature is above -10C (14F)
2. The range is dictated by : Terrain - Temperature - Technique (driving)
3. Tesla range numbers are NOT reflecting the reality. kW/km or kW/mi are a lot more indication of what the range of the car might be.
Now, in the case of the OP, the RWD LFP he has it is known that it doesn't perform great in very cold weather IF the battery isn’t warm, I may say hot. Especially in 15-30 mins drives, that can be as much as 5 to 15 km drives, in a busy day. And before anyone starts to throw apples to me, let me tell you that I just ordered a 2023 RWD LFP M3.
But I did it after watching everything that was to watch about the LFP batteries.
So, for the Tesla he has to be more efficient, thus, to have a better range, there are two things that should be done:
1. Disable Sentry while at home, it is useless.
2. Precondition the car before driving away for at least 20 mins (to give enough time to the battery to warm up)
Although the first is easy to do, the second one involves about 4 kWh more added to the daily consumption from the Power utility. Now, question is, if you drive 20 miles a day, is it worth spending 4 kWh more ? IMO no. if you drive 150 miles a day, it does.
I imagine in the future, insulated or heated garages may become more popular in cold climates since cold seems to affect EVs so much. I live in Georgia, so it rarely goes below 20 F, but with my insulated garage, I don’t really notice any range difference between 30 F in the winter and 85 F in summer. Model 3 RWD LFP.
After two years of ownership with my M3LR.... I have got exactly the EPA rating (if not fractionally better)...so I guess I’ll be a witness for the defense if you decide to sue
I took the time and read all the topic, finally. If I understand correctly is that the OP complains about the range number posted by Tesla @ 100% SOC vs the real range that he gets during winter. This discrepancy was noted since Tesla was first released on the roads, I am not sure why is this NEWS for the OP. There is a reason people follow the energy graph instead of the range number posted at the top of the screen. It is also notorious that the Tesla cars don’t easily match the range numbers posted in real life driving situations. Unlike other EV on the market.
The choice of Tesla to always show the fix number was done so that people know when they get off the bed and are ready to drive, that their car has the same range as when they bought it. But, once they start driving it, they start to understand that driving a Tesla isn’t easy when you don’t use the navigation planner. The GOM itself is pretty much useless.
A crush course to the OP :
- the range of an EV is dependent of three factors : terrain, temperature and technique (driving style).
- out of the three, road surface, outside temperature, wind and the tire's pressure have a very big impact, because driving 40 km isn’t much. Your ICEV wasn’t even warm enough in the first 15 minutes of driving. And I am sure it would use about 8-9 L/100 km in winter vs 5-6 L/100 km in summer. That’s pretty much 30%-40% less "range" with your ICEV winter vs summer.
Now, what you need to know about your Tesla SR LFP in winter is :
- the LFP model needs at least 20 mins of preconditioning to have a somewhat warm battery if you are plugged outside.
- the LFP model has a very advanced heat-pump system that can work in two ways : it uses the cabin heat to warm the battery when the cabin is too hot and it uses the battery heat to warm the cabin when the cabin is too cold.
- the best setup during winter for an LFP, when left outside, is to preheat the cabin to a toasty temperature for 20 mins and then, once you enter to driving it, stop the heat and use the heated seat and steering wheel only. Don't use recirculate and that’s it. Start the HVAC as needed, later.
I am sure that if you do these and you disregard the range number on top and use the energy graph, you’ll feel a lot better driving your Tesla in winter.
And btw, the one who said that your battery shrinks from 60 kWh to 40 kWh during winter, didn't know what he was talking about. The battery doesn’t shrink in cold, it’s not a penis.
The choice of Tesla to always show the fix number was done so that people know when they get off the bed and are ready to drive, that their car has the same range as when they bought it. But, once they start driving it, they start to understand that driving a Tesla isn’t easy when you don’t use the navigation planner. The GOM itself is pretty much useless.
A crush course to the OP :
- the range of an EV is dependent of three factors : terrain, temperature and technique (driving style).
- out of the three, road surface, outside temperature, wind and the tire's pressure have a very big impact, because driving 40 km isn’t much. Your ICEV wasn’t even warm enough in the first 15 minutes of driving. And I am sure it would use about 8-9 L/100 km in winter vs 5-6 L/100 km in summer. That’s pretty much 30%-40% less "range" with your ICEV winter vs summer.
Now, what you need to know about your Tesla SR LFP in winter is :
- the LFP model needs at least 20 mins of preconditioning to have a somewhat warm battery if you are plugged outside.
- the LFP model has a very advanced heat-pump system that can work in two ways : it uses the cabin heat to warm the battery when the cabin is too hot and it uses the battery heat to warm the cabin when the cabin is too cold.
- the best setup during winter for an LFP, when left outside, is to preheat the cabin to a toasty temperature for 20 mins and then, once you enter to driving it, stop the heat and use the heated seat and steering wheel only. Don't use recirculate and that’s it. Start the HVAC as needed, later.
I am sure that if you do these and you disregard the range number on top and use the energy graph, you’ll feel a lot better driving your Tesla in winter.
And btw, the one who said that your battery shrinks from 60 kWh to 40 kWh during winter, didn't know what he was talking about. The battery doesn’t shrink in cold, it’s not a penis.
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Driving 7 km is usually gonna use from 280 Wh/Km to 350 Wh/Km, depending on the outside temperature, road conditions, weather. And guess what ? It’s not with a Tesla that I get these numbers. All EV have the same behaviour in cold weather when they are driven short distances. Your ICEV driven 7 km in winter I bet was getting 11-13 L/100 km or more. I doubt it even had time to warm enough the engine. Not sure why you expect an EV to behave differently.
brainhouston
Active Member
I agree with OP on one thing, Tesla needs to add "projected" range (the one available in Energy graph for last X miles) to battery icon display. Maybe even make it default..
Most modern ICE cars have "miles to empty" display on IC that gives u estimate based on ur driving for past X miles.
Rated range is just a battery health meter, should just do what Apple does n show Battery health in %
Most modern ICE cars have "miles to empty" display on IC that gives u estimate based on ur driving for past X miles.
Rated range is just a battery health meter, should just do what Apple does n show Battery health in %
In the future people will probably just have larger batteries if they need to compensate for cold startups, especially since most driving is well within range anyway. If prices are $100/kWh or less and you have an extra 10kWh you've just easily done cabin warm-up for a round trip and then in better weather you now have a bunch of extra range.
My Kona EV gets 2.7mi/kWh with 70mph winter driving on snow tires compared to 4mi/kWh rated. About 170-175 miles of winter Interstate range compared to 258 rated. Not a problem for me. Knock off another 10kWh and I have 140-odd miles. Problem? Well, on the rare occasion I needed to get to Greater Portland area in winter, it'd be a problem, otherwise, it'd cover regular driving.
However, my car _is_ parked in an insulated but unheated garage, where winter temperatures in the garage still drop to mid-high 20*. But at least I don't need to defrost and scrape and/or brush in the mornings. _That's_ why I like having the garage, not really for the range.
Also, I don't have a heat pump. If my car had a heat pump, it would be better in winter. Kona has a heat pump in Canada, but California isn't cold enough for us to warrant a heat pump. Apparently, Hyunkia thinks Maine should buy Niros.
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brainhouston
Active Member
I'm rooting for "future" with better battery density per weight ratio
If i can have a car that gets 300mi in winter n lots more in summer, that be sweet
If i can have a car that gets 300mi in winter n lots more in summer, that be sweet
Jpandes
Member
It's situational. My previous (DD) car got such bad gas mileage (~12mpg), but was fun as hell to drive. I rationalized this by telling myself that my fuel costs were "entertainment costs". My average is ~ 430 wh/mi and I can only count on around ~200 miles of range. I am pretty sure that it's my driving style, but I am OK with this
Jpandes
Member
Olle
Active Member
It's amazing that this exact issue keeps coming up over and over. Somebody buys an EV and is surprised that the milage varies.
When you write that "advertised range" is too high, what standard should the car makers follow instead of EPA? WLTP? That one is even worse for overestimating range. Gas cars aren't any closer to their EPA range, at least not here in FL where people leave the engine running all day to keep the car cold and ready to go. My neighbor was bragging that he only gets 12 mpg out of his Suburban even though it's rated for 32 mpg (he's invested in oil and thought it was an achievement. I digress.)
I'm not writing this to convince anyone that winter range is more than it is, because it isn't. I have even gotten as low as 50% EPA on my Model S Upstate NY, starting cold soaked in -15 F. (S has ternary cells that are supposed to be the best winter option. Can't imagine how bad LFP would have been for that same drive). On the other hand, I have often gotten well over EPA range driving from Ft Myers to Orlando on route 17 which with traffic keeps you under 60 mph. Luckily it probably doesn't happen too often, or people would sue Tesla after buying an LR when they only needed standard as it turned out
. Thinking about it, it's not funny because unfortunately it would happen, so in a way EPA's over optimism is a blessing.
I really liked Tesla's "How Far can I Go" page, were you could select wheels and move sliders for cabin temp, outdoor temp and speed and got to observe how the range changed. I guess too many people sued when they didn't get at least that, every time, so now we are stuck with the EPA. We get what we ask for, sometimes inadvertently
When you write that "advertised range" is too high, what standard should the car makers follow instead of EPA? WLTP? That one is even worse for overestimating range. Gas cars aren't any closer to their EPA range, at least not here in FL where people leave the engine running all day to keep the car cold and ready to go. My neighbor was bragging that he only gets 12 mpg out of his Suburban even though it's rated for 32 mpg (he's invested in oil and thought it was an achievement. I digress.)
I'm not writing this to convince anyone that winter range is more than it is, because it isn't. I have even gotten as low as 50% EPA on my Model S Upstate NY, starting cold soaked in -15 F. (S has ternary cells that are supposed to be the best winter option. Can't imagine how bad LFP would have been for that same drive). On the other hand, I have often gotten well over EPA range driving from Ft Myers to Orlando on route 17 which with traffic keeps you under 60 mph. Luckily it probably doesn't happen too often, or people would sue Tesla after buying an LR when they only needed standard as it turned out
. Thinking about it, it's not funny because unfortunately it would happen, so in a way EPA's over optimism is a blessing.I really liked Tesla's "How Far can I Go" page, were you could select wheels and move sliders for cabin temp, outdoor temp and speed and got to observe how the range changed. I guess too many people sued when they didn't get at least that, every time, so now we are stuck with the EPA. We get what we ask for, sometimes inadvertently
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