Hope it's not a subscription. I just want to pay per use, because I'm likely only going to supercharge a couple times per year. I suspect there's some hardware differences in the car, like beefier wiring and relays to bypass the built-in chargers. I'm happy to pay a premium per charge, up to the price of the equivalent amount of gasoline, but that's because I'm going to use this so rarely.
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Thanks everybody for contributing so far.
What this thread made clear to me is that I don't really know what the feature is about. :redface:
Is "supercharger access" a hardware option? Will there be 60kWh equipped Model S that are not capable of using a supercharger because the owner de-selected the "supercharger access" option at purchase time?
Or is "supercharger access" something like a lifetime subscription to Tesla's fast DC charging network?
Or a combination of both?
What's your opinion?
What this thread made clear to me is that I don't really know what the feature is about. :redface:
Is "supercharger access" a hardware option? Will there be 60kWh equipped Model S that are not capable of using a supercharger because the owner de-selected the "supercharger access" option at purchase time?
Or is "supercharger access" something like a lifetime subscription to Tesla's fast DC charging network?
Or a combination of both?
What's your opinion?
It seems like it will be both. The 85 kWh car will have the hardware included while it's an option on the 65 kWh car (a guess of course from what they have on their website so far). Question is of course even in the 85 kWh car, will there be a cost to charge or a subscription on top of that? We'll have to wait I guess.
AndyM
Member
My opinion:
There's tech on the 85 kWh cars (and optional/TBD on 60kWh) that permits connections to the Superchargers. Either you buy the 85 kWh battery, or pay for the option on your 60 kWh car.
As far as I understand, access to the Superchargers is not intended to be a pay-for-use or subscription service.
There's tech on the 85 kWh cars (and optional/TBD on 60kWh) that permits connections to the Superchargers. Either you buy the 85 kWh battery, or pay for the option on your 60 kWh car.
As far as I understand, access to the Superchargers is not intended to be a pay-for-use or subscription service.
That's what it sounds like to me, but I'm just speculating. Expect this is something Tesla is going to reveal in July.
I think your estimates are a bit high. From Nissan, a CHAdeMO station costs less than $30,000. And the installation can run between $10,000 and $150,000.
A lot depends on the power grid in the area where the charger is to be installed. If a new transformer and a kilometer of high-power cabling is required, the installation is costly, but if there's already sufficient cabling up to the charger location, it can be fairly cheap.
I'll agree my estimate was a bit optimistic; $75,000 is probably a good average.
I had the firm assumption that "supercharger access" is a hardware option. But it is listed in the "charging" section of the Options and Pricing page (scroll all the way down), among the other not-built-in accessories, so I am tempted to think it is a one time fee subscription.
Anyway, the upper limit for the option is $10k minus the cost for 25kWh pack capacity (the difference between 60kwh and 85kWh pack). And that would be without margins.
Anyway, the upper limit for the option is $10k minus the cost for 25kWh pack capacity (the difference between 60kwh and 85kWh pack). And that would be without margins.
dmckinstry
Model X 2019
Personally (and I have voted on the poll, since my intention is for the 85kWh pack), I wouldn't mind a per session charge based on usage. I wouldn't want it to exceed the cost of gas for the equivalent distance traveled. But another question is important to me. What is the maximum usage (duration per use and number of times used) of the supercharger on an 85kWh or 60kWh pack without adversely affecting the battery warranty?
Yeah - it might be, or it might not. But the Blink station includes a feature which I think is highly desirable - the ability to immediately charge a 2nd car once the 1st is finished.
Yeah, either way most of my post was related to the ongoing cost of providing a QC station and little to do with the up-front cost except to highlight that it can vary a lot.
Anyway - a bit off-topic to the thread. I do have to wonder what Tesla has up their sleeves for the 60 kWh S and what they will be charging for access to the supercharger network. It might be free at first, but one can't expect that to last forever if you want the QC stations to remain available forever.
We must wait for the fine print in Tesla's battery guarantee to answer that. It is said that Tesla excluded the 40kWh pack from supercharging to avoid guarantee issues, because people would do road trips with several QC sessions per day otherwise.
I expect no limit on duration of a charging session. Compare with Roadster charging from HPC @70A below: It will begin to drop around 80% SOC and finally come to a trickle. A fast DC charging stating might pull tricks to make you move on before that, though.
I agree that is a good thing. In the past, I have suggested fast chargers include that ability, but was not aware they were already available. I hope Tesla includes this functionality. I also hope that Tesla includes additional 20-30 kW AC charging points, just in case the Supercharger is broken or occupied. AC charging points cost at most $5000, and if the Supercharger happens to be broken, there should be a lot of spare AC power available mere feet away.
One thing I'm also hoping (of course), is that they install Superchargers in Europe. It would be possible to cover all of Norway with just 20 Superchargers. That's a cost of maybe $1.5 million to make the Model S here basically an unlimited range EV. That makes for good advertizing. And Tesla already has something like 350 reservations here, so we're talking about maybe 5% of the revenue in the existing reservations. It shouldn't be too hard to distribute the cost out over a few years.
One thing I've been wondering is if they might make CHAdeMO supported natively for the 40 kWh version and possibly the 60 kWh version, at least in Europe, and for the 60 kWh version one would have the option of upgrading from native CHAdeMO to Supercharger compatibility. For those who pick the lower range batteries, I think this is something they would value immensely. We already have something like 30 CHAdeMO fast chargers here, and they are placed in areas where people with lower range might need them.
Also, another thing I keep forgetting to mention - it should be possible to get businesses to share some of the cost of putting up a charger. This assumes however that people will actually use the charger, so to avoid having lots of chargers no one is using, Tesla shouldn't make the mistake of introducing too many Superchargers too fast. This might piss off the businesses who agree to allocate space for the charger and possibly sponsor the Supercharger to some extent. I think the strategy should be to start by introducing 1 Supercharger for every 50 Tesla reservations with Supercharger access, and then as Tesla cars start to hit the street, gradually shift that number closer to 1 Supercharger per 100 Teslas with Supercharger access. In the US this would mean starting with around 200 Superchargers and then adding more as more cars hit the streets. In Norway this would mean starting with around 7 Superchargers (And they should be placed at Geilo, Haukeli, Dombås, Porsgrunn, Kristiansand, Bergen, Stavanger. Are you listening Tesla? *shakes fist*).
I agree. That was the point I was trying to make. I don't think trying to recoup the investment quickly does Tesla any good. With such a small number of cars to charge, prices would have to be significantly high and would likely garner bad press as 'proof' that EVs don't make economic sense. I think it's much better for Tesla to write off part of the Supercharger network as advertising, part simply as a business expense to make EVs more acceptable to owners, and to try and recoup the rest from the customers over time. I don't see any problem with Tesla charging a reasonable rate per use but asking for $50 per charge, even if that's justifiable from the cost of the infrastructure, just wouldn't look good.
I understand the plan is to include more than one Supercharger per location and a level 2 charger (that was from a store employee though so not sure how in the loop they are with plans like this). That would be ideal, I agree.
I agree the advertizing value shouldn't be disregarded, but as long as there's a years worth of reservations, the focus shouldn't really be on advertizing. So, we don't need all the Superchargers right now, and Tesla shouldn't rush themselves. I'd rather wait a bit longer for a system that works perfectly than get a system right now that works almost okay.
When it comes to the expected announcement regarding the Superchargers, I would much rather hear about cooperation with businesses in strategic locations than about massive numbers of Superchargers. I'd also like to hear about cost-sharing schemes, user costs and features. Reservation capability? Real time status information?
(I'm sorry, I seem to be getting off topic. Back to the 60 kWh Supercharger access option cost.)
When it comes to the expected announcement regarding the Superchargers, I would much rather hear about cooperation with businesses in strategic locations than about massive numbers of Superchargers. I'd also like to hear about cost-sharing schemes, user costs and features. Reservation capability? Real time status information?
(I'm sorry, I seem to be getting off topic. Back to the 60 kWh Supercharger access option cost.)
The only times you're going to use the supercharger is on trips, so unless you travel weekly or more, I doubt that battery life will take a noticeable hit. So if a reasonable life for an 85 kW pack is 12 years, whether it's 11 years and six months or 12 years and three months isn't going to make a great deal of difference in the long run.
Kipernicus
Model S Res#P1440
Now that the new design studio is up, and we still don't have a price for 60kWh Supercharger hardware and software, I feel the need to rant about this some more.
Access to the Supercharger network, with its proprietary connector, should be included for free for ALL Tesla vehicles. Sure maybe the Roadster should be exempt because of incompatible older technology, but to cripple the 40kWh model S and make it an option for 60kWh cars is just very poor brand management and customer service.
"Your Tesla can't use the Tesla charger!" (cue Nelson Muntz "HA HA")
What happens when Bluestar comes out? We expect the lower cost car to have smaller packs, so will those be excluded from the network as well?
AndyM had some very good points that I think are worth repeating:
All Teslas had better work with CHAdeMO. How embarrassing will it be for Tesla when someone demonstrates that a Nissan Leaf can drive through Washington and Oregon faster than a 40kWh Model S?
:cursing:
Access to the Supercharger network, with its proprietary connector, should be included for free for ALL Tesla vehicles. Sure maybe the Roadster should be exempt because of incompatible older technology, but to cripple the 40kWh model S and make it an option for 60kWh cars is just very poor brand management and customer service.
"Your Tesla can't use the Tesla charger!" (cue Nelson Muntz "HA HA")
What happens when Bluestar comes out? We expect the lower cost car to have smaller packs, so will those be excluded from the network as well?
AndyM had some very good points that I think are worth repeating:
All Teslas had better work with CHAdeMO. How embarrassing will it be for Tesla when someone demonstrates that a Nissan Leaf can drive through Washington and Oregon faster than a 40kWh Model S?
:cursing:
Last edited by a moderator:
NigelM
Recovering Member
Dude, you're going to have a very frustrated summer. Tesla has already said that the 60kWh and 40kWh battery packs won't be going into production till November and December respectively. That means they're able to push any decisions there backwards for up to 4 months or so. If they had details on the 60kWh pack already I'm sure we would have heard by now. It's already stated that the 40kWh packs won't have supercharger access and been discussed in many places. From what I heard it's more of a technical issue for the 40kWh battery packs and not a price issue. Plus doing a long road trip with a 40kWh battery pack is not feasible unless you're prepared to spend as much time charging as driving; and "overuse" of superchargers will wreck your battery in the long run anyway.
Unrealistic.
Kipernicus
Model S Res#P1440
I don't buy the technical issues - Leaf and iMiev can DC quick charge.
I don't agree with the "it's bad to do it so often" argument. Do the best you can to inform the customer and let him/her decide how to use their car, but don't lock them out completely.
My concern is for Tesla's overall brand image when journalists and stock analysts make the inevitable comparison to cheaper, lower capacity EVs and proclaim the Model S a bad value. It's all about consumer perception, and not all consumers (or journalists or analysts) are armed with all the facts. Unrealistic it may be, but we've all seen the articles full of unrealistic expectations, comparisons, and conclusions, and that unfortunately drives a fair share of public sentiment.
I don't agree with the "it's bad to do it so often" argument. Do the best you can to inform the customer and let him/her decide how to use their car, but don't lock them out completely.
My concern is for Tesla's overall brand image when journalists and stock analysts make the inevitable comparison to cheaper, lower capacity EVs and proclaim the Model S a bad value. It's all about consumer perception, and not all consumers (or journalists or analysts) are armed with all the facts. Unrealistic it may be, but we've all seen the articles full of unrealistic expectations, comparisons, and conclusions, and that unfortunately drives a fair share of public sentiment.
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