Winter driving advice, winter tire choices, etc.

[mod3perf]

New Model 3 Performance owner here! Any recommendations for tires and wheel sizes? Wanna stick with the look of the 20s so the only good option seems to be the Michelin Alpin PA4 or the Pirelli Sottozero 3. Any experience with these in the Northeast winters? Also would love if you can share pics of your setups!

 

[camalaio]

New Model 3 Performance owner here! Any recommendations for tires and wheel sizes? Wanna stick with the look of the 20s so the only good option seems to be the Michelin Alpin PA4 or the Pirelli Sottozero 3. Any experience with these in the Northeast winters? Also would love if you can share pics of your setups!

First, be absolutely sure you want to stick with 20s. If you get potholes at all, you do run a rather high risk of cracking a rim and potentially getting a flat since there's so little rubber height to absorb the impact.

If you step down to the Tesla 19s, your choices for rubber are somewhat limited still but they look very similar.

If you get the aftermarket Tsportline 18s, you get a similar rim but much better offerings for rubber.

Both the tires you listed are "performance winters". They're not particularly good in bad conditions, but are better than an all season. They sacrifice true winter performance for things like wet grip, speed rating, and noise level. But as far as I understand, in the 20" size, these are basically the only offerings.

 

[coleAK]

First, be absolutely sure you want to stick with 20s. If you get potholes at all, you do run a rather high risk of cracking a rim and potentially getting a flat since there's so little rubber height to absorb the impact.

If you step down to the Tesla 19s, your choices for rubber are somewhat limited still but they look very similar.

If you get the aftermarket Tsportline 18s, you get a similar rim but much better offerings for rubber.

Both the tires you listed are "performance winters". They're not particularly good in bad conditions, but are better than an all season. They sacrifice true winter performance for things like wet grip, speed rating, and noise level. But as far as I understand, in the 20" size, these are basically the only offerings.

This. Go to an 18” and get a real winter tire. Other than looks (which are subjective I think the 18” look better than 20) 18” is better in every way, even more so in the winter: softer ride, more rim protection, shorter stopping distance, Better traction,...

 

[mod3perf]

First, be absolutely sure you want to stick with 20s. If you get potholes at all, you do run a rather high risk of cracking a rim and potentially getting a flat since there's so little rubber height to absorb the impact.

If you step down to the Tesla 19s, your choices for rubber are somewhat limited still but they look very similar.

If you get the aftermarket Tsportline 18s, you get a similar rim but much better offerings for rubber.

Both the tires you listed are "performance winters". They're not particularly good in bad conditions, but are better than an all season. They sacrifice true winter performance for things like wet grip, speed rating, and noise level. But as far as I understand, in the 20" size, these are basically the only offerings.

Thanks for the reply. I'll definitely consider this. The entire family like the look of the stock 20s so we wanted to stick with that knowing the risk with potholes. 19s could be a good option as well. Mainly just wanted to see what other people were running. Also side question since I'm new to this, how do I like replies or mark them as helpful?

 

[mod3perf]

This. Go to an 18” and get a real winter tire. Other than looks (which are subjective I think the 18” look better than 20) 18” is better in every way, even more so in the winter: softer ride, more rim protection, shorter stopping distance, Better traction,...

Personally I like the look of the 20s more, but I do see the benefits of going on the 18s. Wanted to see what people run on their cars during the winter and what they think is the best tire. I live in Pittsburgh so we see decent snowfall, but I don't know if its enough to downgrade to an 18 and a non-performance winter tire.

 

[HyperionMark]

This. Go to an 18” and get a real winter tire. Other than looks (which are subjective I think the 18” look better than 20) 18” is better in every way, even more so in the winter: softer ride, more rim protection, shorter stopping distance, Better traction,...

I absolutely believe you, I'm just trying to understand why this is true. Why would an 18 inch tire have better traction than a 20 inch?

 

[camalaio]

Thanks for the reply. I'll definitely consider this. ... Also side question since I'm new to this, how do I like replies or mark them as helpful?

Bottom right corner of the posts there's little icons to click. They're kinda grayed out until you hover on them, can be hard to see on some screens.

I absolutely believe you, I'm just trying to understand why this is true. Why would an 18 inch tire have better traction than a 20 inch?

It's not really that there's a difference in the tire somehow, just a difference in offerings. The better stopping distance and traction are a result of different available tires, not the size.

For example, many people run and like the Hakkapeliitta R3 set. However, it's only available in the 18" size if I recall correctly. I think Michelin X-Ice was the common one for the 19" crowd (I personally don't like these because they behave much much more like a performance winter in my experience - I've directly compared the Hakkas and X-Ice on my Honda Crosstour, and the Hakkas were better in every way except noise).

For the 20" crowd, many people just go with the Tesla-recommended Pirellis. I'm not sure if there's a common opinion for one or the other, other than hitting the first pothole and saying "THAT'S IT" and going to a smaller rim anyways

 

[coleAK]

I absolutely believe you, I'm just trying to understand why this is true. Why would an 18 inch tire have better traction than a 20 inch?

Short answer. Smaller rims (with more sidewall) have Less rotational mass, And more sidewall for deflection (to increase contact point). 16-18” are considered the “gold standard” for track cars. I have always wondered where the big rim trend came from. Worst thing you can do to a performance car is upsize the rims, with that you get: slower acceleration, increased stopping distance, more expensive tires, harsher ride, increased flat risk. The guys dominating auto cross in Performance 3’s are running 18’s. If someone could fit a 17, it would be faster.

F1 cars run 13” rims. There is debate as they are trying to increase the requirement to 18” in order to DECREASE PERFORMANCE.

 

[mod3perf]

Short answer. Smaller rims (with more sidewall) have Less rotational mass, And more sidewall for deflection (to increase contact point). 16-18” are considered the “gold standard” for track cars. I have always wondered where the big rim trend came from. Worst thing you can do to a performance car is upsize the rims, with that you get: slower acceleration, increased stopping distance, more expensive tires, harsher ride, increased flat risk. The guys dominating auto cross in Performance 3’s are running 18’s. If someone could fit a 17, it would be faster.

F1 cars run 13” rims. There is debate as they are trying to increase the requirement to 18” in order to DECREASE PERFORMANCE.

In general, performance cars have bigger wheels and smaller sidewalls to increase the sharpness of the steering at high-speeds. This is why most tire manufactures have ultra-high performance tires with smaller sidewalls. I understand your point but I think going bigger is only better to an extent for high-performance driving. The Performance Model 3's in autocross with 18s is definitely something I'll have to learn about.

 

[coleAK]

In general, performance cars have bigger wheels and smaller sidewalls to increase the sharpness of the steering at high-speeds. This is why most tire manufactures have ultra-high performance tires with smaller sidewalls. I understand your point but I think going bigger is only better to an extent for high-performance driving. The Performance Model 3's in autocross with 18s is definitely something I'll have to learn about.

Larger wheels for sharper steering is somewhat of a misconception. It is hard to generate enough lateral force to deflect a sidewall enough to matter even on Slicks, not close to possible on a DOT tire. Like I said F1 cars run 13” rims. When I was into track cars (about 15 years ago) general opinion was 16-17” was the sweet spot for fastest laps. Best track car you can buy is a Porsche 911 GT3 “cup car” it comes with 18” wheels.

 

[GregD60]

Larger wheels for sharper steering is somewhat of a misconception. It is hard to generate enough lateral force to deflect a sidewall enough to matter even on Slicks, not close to possible on a DOT tire. Like I said F1 cars run 13” rims. When I was into track cars (about 15 years ago) general opinion was 16-17” was the sweet spot for fastest laps. Best track car you can buy is a Porsche 911 GT3 “cup car” it comes with 18” wheels.

F1 cars don't run 13" wheels because that is the optimal size; they run 13" wheels because that is the maximum size that the rules allow. IIIRC, F1 made this rule back in the 1960s or 70s to try and contain costs. Indy cars and Nascar use 15" wheels, again required by the rules. LMP1 cars are using 18" wheels; I'm not sure if that's dictated by the rules or not. DTM cars are running 18" wheels which I believe is dictated by the rules. Can Am cars of the late 1960s and early 1970s, used 15" tires and I don't think there was any limitation on their tire sizes in the rules. They just went with the best tires that were available using the technology of the time.

 

[camalaio]

I highly doubt any of this has any impact on winter driving. Not like we're trying to pull 1G through corners in winter?

 

[GregD60]

I highly doubt any of this has any impact on winter driving. Not like we're trying to pull 1G through corners in winter?

Very true. For winter driving with a Model 3, 18" wheels are probably the best choice, although if you have a performance Model 3, I'd be inclined to go with the the Tesla 19" Gemini winter setup.
Model 3 19” Gemini Wheel and Winter Tire Package

 

[KenC]

F1 cars don't run 13" wheels because that is the optimal size; they run 13" wheels because that is the maximum size that the rules allow. IIIRC, F1 made this rule back in the 1960s or 70s to try and contain costs. Indy cars and Nascar use 15" wheels, again required by the rules. LMP1 cars are using 18" wheels; I'm not sure if that's dictated by the rules or not. DTM cars are running 18" wheels which I believe is dictated by the rules. Can Am cars of the late 1960s and early 1970s, used 15" tires and I don't think there was any limitation on their tire sizes in the rules. They just went with the best tires that were available using the technology of the time.

And F1 is finally switching to larger 18" rims in 2021, but because of COVID, will not be coming until the 2022 season.

 

[Tanis]

Short answer. Smaller rims (with more sidewall) have Less rotational mass, And more sidewall for deflection (to increase contact point). 16-18” are considered the “gold standard” for track cars. I have always wondered where the big rim trend came from. Worst thing you can do to a performance car is upsize the rims, with that you get: slower acceleration, increased stopping distance, more expensive tires, harsher ride, increased flat risk. The guys dominating auto cross in Performance 3’s are running 18’s. If someone could fit a 17, it would be faster.

F1 cars run 13” rims. There is debate as they are trying to increase the requirement to 18” in order to DECREASE PERFORMANCE.

Excellent summery! I went down to lightweight forged 18" Martian Wheels on my M3P as well. Weight diffrence is 5kg per rim, so 20 kilo in total, wich is huge! Much better in every way. Also improves your milage, which is important for your winter set up as well, because the range is lower due to temperatures, so you will gain some of that loss with smaller rims.

All car manufacturers are increasing rim sizes with every new model. We are kind of leared that that is how cars should look. But it is BS. Audi, BMW and Tesla being the worst examples. New Audi RS6 goes up to 22", that is madness. Car would perform much better with 19"s.

I red somewhere that this also drives the change to 18" in F1, because people recognize this look from street performance cars. All teams are against this, because it will slow them down.

 

[coleAK]

F1 cars don't run 13" wheels because that is the optimal size; they run 13" wheels because that is the maximum size that the rules allow. IIIRC, F1 made this rule back in the 1960s or 70s to try and contain costs. Indy cars and Nascar use 15" wheels, again required by the rules. LMP1 cars are using 18" wheels; I'm not sure if that's dictated by the rules or not. DTM cars are running 18" wheels which I believe is dictated by the rules. Can Am cars of the late 1960s and early 1970s, used 15" tires and I don't think there was any limitation on their tire sizes in the rules. They just went with the best tires that were available using the technology of the time.

Most teams are against the change to 18” because it is slowing the cars down. They run faster Around the tracks on 13-15” then on 18”

 

[GregD60]

Most teams are against the change to 18” because it is slowing the cars down. They run faster Around the tracks on 13-15” then on 18”

I think the reality is that the engineers can get the cars to run very fast no matter what size wheels are chosen. If you just toss some 18" wheels and tires on a car designed for 13" wheels and tires it will be slower. Changing the wheel and tire size will require changes to the suspension, brakes, and aerodynamics of the car to optimize it for the different sizes. I really think it is highly unlikely that the cars will be slower with 18" wheels by the time the designer and engineers are done changing the car for the particular wheel and tire size. According to Pirelli, the cars should actually be faster once everything is optimized.

Little known is that Pirelli was on the verge of introducing 18-inch tyres for GP2 back in 2015, at time when F1 seriously considered making the switch. Indeed, Pirelli showed off a Lotus fitted with 18-inch wheels. The F1 car didn’t, though, run in anger…

“No, but for example for GP2 the same year, because there was discussion about the possibility to introduce it in Formula One. So as usual GP2 wants to anticipate it, and we made a product for GP2 that was let’s say a final version…but then Formula 1 decided not to move to 18-inch, and GP2 said ‘OK, we stay on 13s’.”

Were there noticeable differences?

“I can tell you,” Isola says carefully, as though sharing a secret, “that the product we developed for GP2 at the time, in terms of performance, was in line with the 13-inch. Consider that it was a completely new product, so to have this, with the same performance as the 13-inch, that is a tyre that was developed since many years, it’s an encouraging result.

And anticipated performance gain after development?

“Maybe a couple of seconds. I would say maybe three. Three is a lot anyway. Three seconds per lap.”

Revolutionary wheels: Why F1 going 18-inch will change everything · RaceFans

 

[HyperionMark]

What size wheels are the top guys using on Pikes Peak? (I know a Model 3 is going to do it this year)

 

[Zcd1]

New Model 3 Performance owner here! Any recommendations for tires and wheel sizes? Wanna stick with the look of the 20s so the only good option seems to be the Michelin Alpin PA4 or the Pirelli Sottozero 3. Any experience with these in the Northeast winters? Also would love if you can share pics of your setups!

I chose 20" Michelin Pilot Alpins for 2 main reasons:
1) I wanted to run my OEM 20" rims my first winter with the car because I didn't want to invest in another set of rims at that point
2) I like the way 20" rims look.

I've run 20" rims on multiple cars through multiple Chicago winters without issues.

Here's my winter setup - 20" TSW "Ohm" wheels with 235/35/20 Michelin PA4:

 

[scarpiamod3]

I chose 20" Michelin Pilot Alpins for 2 main reasons:
1) I wanted to run my OEM 20" rims my first winter with the car because I didn't want to invest in another set of rims at that point
2) I like the way 20" rims look.

I've run 20" rims on multiple cars through multiple Chicago winters without issues.

Here's my winter setup - 20" TSW "Ohm" wheels with 235/35/20 Michelin PA4:

How do these tires perform? It was one of my options. I do have the stock 18 inch set i was planning on running but i could recap some money by selling them with 75%+ stock tread left.

I have to buy tires regardless if i use the 18s or 20's