X vs S - what am I missing?

[xkwizit]

How recent would it need to be in order to be "in the new builds"?

1 week in, FWD troubles begin was from Friday 8/19/16 and says "We just picked up our new 75D last Friday."
Driver Door Latch Confused has folks from June

First delivery of Model X took place ~Sep 29, 2015. Yet, months after that, folks continued to receive vehicles with front and falcon wing door problems w/some requiring multiple visits to the SC to correct this. One has to wonder whether either set of doors has been subject to the type of testing at automotive reliability and durability testing and what the odds are of passing such a test if a random unit was taking off the line.

I've never known anyone w/door problems of this nature on sub-$50K Japanese cars within the first 5 years. Heck, door problems seem very rare on any car even after they get old. I could forsee issues on luxury cars with mechanisms that pull the door shut...

Between every car my parents and I have owned or leased (a mix of American and Japanese) over almost 40 years, none has ever had a door problem w/opening or closing.

@cwerdna - I hope you do realize that not only there is no other car ever made that X can easily be compared to, the number of Xs with no issues is far greater than the ones with issues. You just don't hear about them as all of those people are simply enjoying the ride.

 

[cwerdna]

The powered doors are one of my favorite features of the X and why it's hard to compare to a Japanese car. It's one of those things where if you don't have it you look at an X and see only reliability issues and when you have it and step into another car you really really miss it. Closing all doors with the fob while walking away, being able to hold kids and groceries while doing it, opening doors for passengers from the console, etc. Not having to close a door is kind of awesome.

To me, it's kinda like saying "I hate garage door openers because they break and require maintenance then once you have it you're like whatever, how did people get out of their cars and manually open garage doors before?"

Let's see if you still have the same love for the doors 5 years from now, after your vehicle has undergone lots of temperature cycling, kids messing the doors, hopefully parking on inclines, snow, and any other gremlins related to the doors.

I don't hate garage door openers and mine has never given me any trouble for the over 10 years I've lived at this house.

@cwerdna - I hope you do realize that not only there is no other car ever made that X can easily be compared to, the number of Xs with no issues is far greater than the ones with issues.

There's a good reason why most other automakers haven't implemented at all or in large volumes things like the extending and retracting door handles on the S and the falcon wing doors besides the self-opening and closing front doors on the X. Tesla doesn't know what it
doesn't know... until it implements it and where it might be too late to change it.

Even if " the number of Xs with no issues is far greater than the ones with issues" is true, that doesn't make it reliable.

Per Car Reliability History | Detailed Ratings - Consumer Reports, the average problem rate for 2015 vehicles at the time their survey was taken was <1 percent for "body hardware", which includes doors. "The 2015 models were generally less than six months old at the time of the survey, with an average of about 3,000 miles." For 2014 model year vehicles during a 1 year timespan, it was 1%.

I think it's pretty safe to assume the problem rate (across all Model X's that have shipped so far) with body hardware for the Model X is well above 1%.

As they define it "BODY HARDWARE: Power or manual windows, locks and latches, tailgate, hatch or trunk, doors or sliding doors, mirrors, seat controls, safety belts, sunroof, convertible top."

I wouldn't be surprised if the front + rear door problem rate alone is well above 1%.

 

[electricity]

How recent would it need to be in order to be "in the new builds"?

1 week in, FWD troubles begin was from Friday 8/19/16 and says "We just picked up our new 75D last Friday."
Driver Door Latch Confused has folks from June

First delivery of Model X took place ~Sep 29, 2015. Yet, months after that, folks continued to receive vehicles with front and falcon wing door problems w/some requiring multiple visits to the SC to correct this. One has to wonder whether either set of doors has been subject to the type of testing at automotive reliability and durability testing and what the odds are of passing such a test if a random unit was taking off the line.

I've never known anyone w/door problems of this nature on sub-$50K Japanese cars within the first 5 years. Heck, door problems seem very rare on any car even after they get old. I could forsee issues on luxury cars with mechanisms that pull the door shut...

Between every car my parents and I have owned or leased (a mix of American and Japanese) over almost 40 years, none has ever had a door problem w/opening or closing.

The X doors are so awesome that i wouldnt mind getting them fixed from time to time if needed. That is my final thought of them, I dont think I will ever like a car that doesnt have falcon wings or self presenting doors.

 

[davidc18]

The doors are not something anyone is going to want to have fixed after the warranty expires. They really should come with a lifetime warranty.

 

[electricity]

The doors are not something anyone is going to want to have fixed after the warranty expires. They really should come with a lifetime warranty.

Why? I knew what i was getting plus the doors are flaweless, if I didnt read forums i would not know some people have issues.

 

[davidc18]

That's great. Clearly the vast majority of people are not having issues. I think it is reasonable to expect that the doors, which are very complex devices, are likely to be very expensive to fix if they fail when out of warranty. 4-10 down the road, no one, even Tesla, knows how they will hold up. If Tesla was certain they doors were bulletproof, they would offer a lifetime warranty covering the FWDs. They do not and there is a reason they do not.

 

[Saghost]

That's great. Clearly the vast majority of people are not having issues. I think it is reasonable to expect that the doors, which are very complex devices, are likely to be very expensive to fix if they fail when out of warranty. 4-10 down the road, no one, even Tesla, knows how they will hold up. If Tesla was certain they doors were bulletproof, they would offer a lifetime warranty covering the FWDs. They do not and there is a reason they do not.

Since Tesla doesn't offer a lifetime warranty on the doors, they must be expecting a lot of failures?

That's creative logic. How many cars do you know of with lifetime warranties on them?

Lifetime warranties in my experience are only offered either on very simple sturdy things or in cases where the company thinks they have to offer a warranty to get folks to buy. Hyundai and Kia offered ten year power train warranties to get customers - but even that wasn't the lifetime you're asking for, nor parts like doors.

 

[travwill]

Since Tesla doesn't offer a lifetime warranty on the doors, they must be expecting a lot of failures?

That's creative logic. How many cars do you know of with lifetime warranties on them?

Lifetime warranties in my experience are only offered either on very simple sturdy things or in cases where the company thinks they have to offer a warranty to get folks to buy. Hyundai and Kia offered ten year power train warranties to get customers - but even that wasn't the lifetime you're asking for, nor parts like doors.

Agree, they will typically be fine. I'll definitely be getting the extended +4 year agreement though.

 

[PtG62901]

I'm not sure how Model S is anything like an S class Mercedes. S class is a luxury vehicle, Model S and Model X are both premium sedan/CUVs respectively. I am 34, don't have a bad back, exercise regularly, and I hated the Model S loaner I had. It was difficult to get into, I had to have my driver seat way forward because the driver side back seat was the only reasonable place to put my son's car seat, and getting my son in and out of the car was a pain as well. Plus, if you have seen the recent thread of the drunk driver who rear ended a Model S, I'm fairly confident my son would have had a significantly higher chance of survival in such a collision because of the height and weight of Model X and the fact that my son is in the center seat in Model X. My family's safety trumps all other factors and I'm very glad I waited for Model X.

Models S and S Class? Same size, same price range, same buyer group, just a different method of delivering value. Let me help you out with statistics, total luxury sedan sales were flat in 2015, but Telsa Model S sales were way up. You see, the Model S is taking market share from the cars in the luxury market, hence... #1 Large Luxury Car In US = Tesla Model S (2015 Sales Comparison)
http://cleantechnica.com/2016/01/15/1-large-luxury-car-in-us-tesla-model-s-2015-sales-comparison/
Do you think a 34 year old is something like the median of this market place? Likely the normal buyer is 55+? Though a little internet searching shows the used market has 10% buyers from 18-34 years old. They say the younger buying group is good for Tesla. Normally that younger group is only buying 6% of the luxury used cars in the US.

It is certainly true that small children say buy a minivan like nothing else. Is it true that a higher height and weight increase survival in car crashes, or is that just a random argument you invented? I'm willing to bet you the crash worthiness of a Model X and S are as close to the same, when we look back in 5 or 10 years. They are almost the same car after all.

Hope you enjoy your car, but your experience is just your experience, not the marketplace. People with enough money to afford cars like this are mostly older, kids grown, not camping in them, etc. The OP point about not understanding why you would not automatically buy one (or the other) is just silly. Yes, he is missing something.

 

[xkwizit]

The thread has definitely gone downhill. I believe the OP came for balanced advice from owners and he got it early on. There's no winning over the naysayers.

@cwerdna @Saghost @PtG62901 - from your profiles one can't determine if you are Tesla vehicle owners. If your experience is based on owning Tesla vehicles, it might be a value add to mention in your profiles.

 

[BigMskiman]

I can't be happier I waited for the X, been doing weekend trips and w/o door issues. I do enable the child protection feature so I, rather than passengers, control the FWD openings. Three times needed to raise suspension for clearance, can the S do that?

TM added the FOB "all close" as an option now, so that's an example how a safety issue was addressed in software.

 

[Super_Popular]

I have had 8 Model S's and cannot wait for my X.

 

[eye.surgeon]

I have had 8 Model S's and cannot wait for my X.

The fact that you've had 8 MS's (??) makes me want to discount your opinion based on poor decision making.

 

[vandacca]

...
First delivery of Model X took place ~Sep 29, 2015. Yet, months after that, folks continued to receive vehicles with front and falcon wing door problems w/some requiring multiple visits to the SC to correct this. One has to wonder whether either set of doors has been subject to the type of testing at automotive reliability and durability testing and what the odds are of passing such a test if a random unit was taking off the line...

It is hard to take anything you write seriously after writing that Model-X deliveries started ~September 29th. Either you're part of Tesla marketing or you're gullible to Tesla marketing.

Any sane and reasonable person would say that the earliest that Model-X deliveries started is last week in December 2015. Delivering a few founder vehicles and one to Elon doesn't count in my books. Even those end-of-December deliveries relied on a lot of manual assembly.

Therefore, you appear to be stretching numbers to help make your point, which is generally a tactic that people use when they have a weak argument. Regardless, I stopped reading once I came across that point.

 

[Jurnimon]

The advantage the X gets with child seats in the second row completely takes away the usefulness of the third row seats for anyone over 5' 4". Child seats in the X 3rd row are ridiculous to install, even with latch that you will never want to move them. The rear facing seats in the S are useful.

The S is harder to get in and out of no question. I had a setting in my profile to move the seat back and move the steering wheel up so I can get in and out of the car. My 75 year old mother hated getting out of the S. I'm sure she would love getting into and out of the X though.

The X windshield is amazing. The Pano roof open and the front windows down almost feels like a targa top. I'd miss that experience with an X.

to the OP, I recommend asking your SC for a 24 hour or weekend long test drive of both vehicles.

No doubt I've had issues with my Falcon Wing Doors as much as anyone else has.
You can argue looks all you want, but in my book, Model S is difficult to get in and out of. And if you have children in car seats, forget about it. Not to mention if you drive Model X for any significant period of time, all vehicles without the panoramic windshield will feel claustrophobic to you.

 

[davidc18]

Definitely ask for an overnight test drive. We were worried about how we would fit two car seats into the car so our rep set up a weekend test drive. We loved the car, the kids loved the car and I was surprised at how much I liked the front window. Have to agree that our MS feels pretty closed in after experiencing the MX. No problems with two car seats in the 6 seat configuration. We are mulling over the 2 year lease option due to my concern about the FWDs.

 

[dinkoh]

Models S and S Class? Same size, same price range, same buyer group, just a different method of delivering value. Let me help you out with statistics, total luxury sedan sales were flat in 2015, but Telsa Model S sales were way up. You see, the Model S is taking market share from the cars in the luxury market, hence... #1 Large Luxury Car In US = Tesla Model S (2015 Sales Comparison)
Do you think a 34 year old is something like the median of this market place? Likely the normal buyer is 55+? Though a little internet searching shows the used market has 10% buyers from 18-34 years old. They say the younger buying group is good for Tesla. Normally that younger group is only buying 6% of the luxury used cars in the US.

Tesla isn't luxury by any means. MB S class is in a league of its own in terms of luxury. Actually, in tech, it's not too far from a Model S. They cater to different drivers though.

While I agree that middle aged consumers are buying MX and MS, I think you will see a lot of millennials purchasing the M3, which will dwarf the numbers of MS and MX out there.

 

[Hitman007]

Apples & Oranges. Do you need a SUV or a car? Seems pretty easy to determine that answer.

 

[Doug_G]

S has better styling (inevitably SUVs are not as attractive), better handling, more range, and is plenty big enough for most people (not all, obviously).

 

[ecarfan]

The S is harder to get in and out of no question. I had a setting in my profile to move the seat back and move the steering wheel up so I can get in and out of the car. My 75 year old mother hated getting out of the S.

Just another data point: my 92 year old mother gets in and out of her Model S every day with no complaints.