$12K for FSD is insane

[SalisburySam]

How Tesla can continue to legally sell something that doesn't exist is mind boggling to me...

Happens. In 2010 I paid $99 to reserve a Nissan LEAF more than a full year before the first ones came off the assembly lines in Japan and over two years before I got my 2012 LEAF SL delivered to me. Loved it, loved a full-on EV, loved driving it, and still do so today. I’m NOT in love with the battery deterioration nor my 35-mile max range at 100% charge obviously. So yeah, some of us are willing to take a risk for something that doesn’t exist. But that LEAF reservation risk was a low one since at any time I could have gotten my deposit returned just for asking, and many did so.

On the other hand, I was NOT one of the people who reserved their Model 3 when announced…I waited until after they were being delivered in reasonable quantities and I ordered in April 2018, took delivery mid-July. Tesla, despite the Roadster and Model S cars in the wild, was still a pretty young, new, and iffy (my opinion) car company. Nissan was far less so and a better gamble to my thinking. Both have worked out for me, still have both, still use both, and reserve all rights to complain/praise/swear at and about them at any time.

I did configure and buy my Model 3 with what was then called EAP and FSD, betting on the come. EAP has panned out reasonably well, FSD not so much. I did get a new HW3 computer for my FSD “investment” but little else of value to me so yeah, I likely would not sign up for FSD in any future Tesla I might buy, especially not until phantom braking is gone from TACC. But I digress.

 

[JustJohn]

I think the term everyone is looking for is "vaporware."

 

[Fernand]

Please don't misunderstand my "living in the past" remark. I'm not criticizing these drivers. They have opportunities to wing out that I don't have, living where I do. It's the ever-encroaching "modern packing" that i'm unhappy about, the way everything is turning to franchised asphalt and plastic. Sure, there are sections of 2 lane highway everywhere, great for cool old-fashioned driving. And the Model 3 is so svelte and fun.

But given the overall circumstances where I live, I've adapted so much to using NOA/FSD that I'm happier speaking a destination and letting the car handle the details rather than starting out in manual as the default mode. Personal preference. It's funny, my wife thinks in terms of let's try right up here, look for the sign, go down the hill there, and that's great, but I'm like give me a destination to feed the car, let's give the GSP lady and the machine something to do , so we can relax.

Truly, one of the essential (and not so obvious) skills to develop in using automation is dropping in and out without a second thought. It's not a contest. Or an evaluation. You bought the thing, make the best use of it. Stay in control. Watch out for danger, defensively. Enjoy the sights. Whenever you can maneuver faster/better/smoother than the system, just do it. Tap up on the stalk and instantly take over. Double tap back down into computer mode instantly too, within seconds.

It's simple and natural as shifting gears, not sitting back in fear and stupor, waiting for the "Oh oh, I have to override". Different attitude, very different nervous system "wiring". Try it that way.

Another trick is to option target the speed a little below posted speed limit, and manually scroll up. I tend to use -3 to -5 MPH. It's your car, nobody says you have to bounce your last meal off the rail cushions . That prevents overly eager "phantom accel" on changed posted speed limits.

 

[Knightshade]

I think the term everyone is looking for is "vaporware."

Gonna just save myself time and repost the same thing every time someone posts nonsense like this.

How people keep falsely claiming they're selling something that doesn't exist is mind boggling to me.

Especially when this factually untrue claim has been explicitly debunked repeatedly in this very thread.

6 of the 7 promised features of the current FSD package are in wide release, and have been for years.

The 7th exists, but is still in narrow-release beta testing. No shortage of videos out there showing owners testing it, so that it exists is self evident.

 

[chinney]

[...]

Truly, one of the essential (and not so obvious) skills to develop in using automation is dropping in and out without a second thought. It's not a contest. Or an evaluation. You bought the thing, make the best use of it. Stay in control. Watch out for danger, defensively. Enjoy the sights. Whenever you can maneuver faster/better/smoother than the system, just do it. Tap up on the stalk and instantly take over. Double tap back down into computer mode instantly too, within seconds.

It's simple and natural as shifting gears, not sitting back in fear and stupor, waiting for the "Oh oh, I have to override". Different attitude, very different nervous system "wiring". Try it that way.

[...]

Perhaps different things work for different people. I just can't get into the mindset you described above. I don't have FSD but I have used Autopilot - something that I was eager to take advantage of when we first got our Tesla. But after numerous experiments, I find that it just does not work for me. Letting Autopilot do the 'piloting' on the highway, but having to constantly closely monitor it, is much more never-wracking to me than actually driving. And 'dropping in and out', in particular, really flummoxes me, as my mind does not shift well between being in full control and not - I have barely avoided accidents in this process, and have given it up for that reason. Perhaps a subset people have the particular mental ability to safely and enjoyably do what you describe, but I do not and I suspect that I am far from alone.

 

[Knightshade]

When you are manually driving in your lane on the highway your brain needs to do all of the following:

1) Steer the vehicle within its lane safely, constantly making microadjustments for road curvature, lane slope, etc...
2) Maintain desired speed and follow distance, constantly making adjustments for vehicles in front of you
3) Pay attention to external conditions- vehicle performance and safety, road, traffic, weather conditions, animals, etc for continued safe operation and be ready to react to any issues as they arise.


When you're driving in your lane on the highway using AP you still have to do item 3.

You do not have to do 1 and 2.

Which actually frees up more of your attention to do a better job on item 3.

That people somehow convince themselves driving on AP is "more work" when it's objectively less is baffling.



Frankly manually driving for a couple hundred highway miles is exhausting compared to doing it on AP- and it's super noticeable anytime I fly somewhere and am forced into a non-tesla rental car.



Also the cost of the basic AP system is $0. It comes with the car.

The thread is (allegedly) about the $12,000 new cost of adding FSD to new cars--- which is an entirely different set of features.

 

[JustJohn]

Gonna just save myself time and repost the same thing every time someone posts nonsense like this.

And I'll keep saying the tech doesn't work as advertised. It would otherwise be available.

 

[Knightshade]

And I'll keep saying the tech doesn't work as advertised. It would otherwise be available.

It is available.

Again, 6 of the 7 listed features have been in wide release for years.

The 7th is in narrow beta release.

That's the opposite of vaporware- a term you're using grossly incorrectly, either on purpose or out of ignorance of its actual meaning.

 

[momo3605]

It is available.

Again, 6 of the 7 listed features have been in wide release for years.

The 7th is in narrow beta release.

That's the opposite of vaporware- a term you're using grossly incorrectly, either on purpose or out of ignorance of its actual meaning.

You guys are both correct. Yes the 6 features are available. But every single one is slapped with a beta tag so from Tesla’s own admission, don’t work as advertised.

 

[Knightshade]

You guys are both correct. Yes the 6 features are available. But every single one is slapped with a beta tag so from Tesla’s own admission, don’t work as advertised.

Can you cite where Tesla defines beta as "does not work as advertised"?

I ask because far as I can tell you're just making that up.


Apart from that- Vaporware does not mean "isn't perfect yet" it means "does not even exist"

Definition of VAPORWARE

a computer-related product that has been widely advertised but has not and may never become available… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Definition of vaporware
: a computer-related product that has been widely advertised but has not and may never become available

 

[phantom701]

Over promised

BTW, I vehemently disagree at the end of the video where this idiot YouTuber claims Elon is a fraud. If the YouTuber is that smart, s/he wouldn't be a YouTuber.

With that said, there's some truth to the content.

 

[Knightshade]

What's funny is the first two clips from 2014 and 2015 Elon promises autopilot "for sure highway"

Which is exactly what we got- pretty much right on time- with autopilot for highways.

His third is in 2016 saying AP is safer than a person- which again Tesla has stats to support as true, even if you wish to debate applicability of the stats.

You don't get to something he was actually wrong on till 2018 where he says by end of next year self driving will encompass all modes (ie city streets)


But Elon told us long ago (in 2018 in fact!) you should ignore any target dates he gives for a thing he's never done before- because how can he actually know when it'll be done?

In this case it's something NOBODY has done- so any target date is a guess no matter who it's coming from.

 

[momo3605]

Can you cite where Tesla defines beta as "does not work as advertised"?

I ask because far as I can tell you're just making that up.


Apart from that- Vaporware does not mean "isn't perfect yet" it means "does not even exist"

Definition of VAPORWARE

a computer-related product that has been widely advertised but has not and may never become available… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Definition of vaporware
: a computer-related product that has been widely advertised but has not and may never become available

Beta means not yet complete, and not ready for production. If Tesla is using the dictionary definition, that means those 6 features are not complete. It’s just a matter of semantics. The advertised “feature” has not been completed.

I agree with you on the vaporware part. Those 6 features exist, and hence not vaporware. L5 FSD on the other hand could be vaporware, but that’s a separate discussion

 

[Knightshade]

Beta means not yet complete, and not ready for production.

Nope.

https://twitter.com/x/status/752192639403896833

 

[Sporty]

Nope.

https://twitter.com/x/status/752192639403896833

Sounds like double talk. Why are the wipers beta? So I don’t get comfortable with them?
The AP feature, due the relative instances of phantom breaking, is not delivered as a working feature. Eg I’m the phenomenon occurs to frequently for me to use the feature.

So is the feature not done (beta), or is it completed and just unusable/crappy (for many people)?

 

[Knightshade]

Sounds like double talk. Why are the wipers beta? So I don’t get comfortable with them?
The AP feature, due the relative instances of phantom breaking, is not delivered as a working feature.

I mean, owners have used the feature for several billion miles of driving- so obviously the claim it's not a working feature is complete nonsense.

Why are these claims always so obviously untrue? How can you expect anyone to take such a ridiculous argument seriously?

So is the feature not done (beta)

What's "done"?

Nearly all software gets regular updates and improvements over time.

It's quite rare for a car to do so though. When's the last time someone with a years old Toyota got new features for free? Tesla owners get that all the time.

As to the beta thing- Google for example famously keeps stuff in beta for many many years too even though it's generally available to everyone... Gmail was "beta" for over 5 years and people were happily using it the whole time.

 

[Huntfortelsa]

But they are not. This just is not true. One, you have to first EARN the right to be put in the beta by getting a 99+ score. THEN IF you live in an area they decide to pick for you then you can use a system that is less than 100% delivered as promised.

Let's be VERY clear it IS NOT in wide release and hasn't been for years. It is in VERY limited release however they will let EVERYONE buy it that is stupid enough to not research what you are actually buying.

You are fixated on FSD beta. That's your choice. But AP gives you lane centering and tacc. FSD, the package adds on auto lane change, navigate on auto (NOA)on highways, auto park and summon. All these don't need you to sign up for anything nor qualify - all you have to do is pay up for FSD. In addition, if you want go further you can sign up for FSD beta que which will give you access to NOA everywhere and not just on highways. I agree that's not fully functional. But point me to a company which can do anything remotely close to what Tesla does in terms of AP or FSD packages - you can't and that's why Elon is looking towards Mars.

 

[goin2drt]

You are fixated on FSD beta. That's your choice. But AP gives you lane centering and tacc. FSD, the package adds on auto lane change, navigate on auto (NOA)on highways, auto park and summon. All these don't need you to sign up for anything nor qualify - all you have to do is pay up for FSD. In addition, if you want go further you can sign up for FSD beta que which will give you access to NOA everywhere and not just on highways. I agree that's not fully functional. But point me to a company which can do anything remotely close to what Tesla does in terms of AP or FSD packages - you can't and that's why Elon is looking towards Mars.

Never said there was another company that could do it better. Bottom line those things that you stated are not worth $12K in my mind. Obviously I am not alone nor are you as plenty have no problem paying that kind of money for those features. For me it isn't worth it. It is half baked and not fully functional. Sell the people the features that are actually fully functional at a price that is "worth" that value. That of course is my opinion I am entitled to just like yours.

 

[raptor5244]

Never said there was another company that could do it better. Bottom line those things that you stated are not worth $12K in my mind. Obviously I am not alone nor are you as plenty have no problem paying that kind of money for those features. For me it isn't worth it. It is half baked and not fully functional. Sell the people the features that are actually fully functional at a price that is "worth" that value. That of course is my opinion I am entitled to just like yours.

At the end of the day this is what it really comes down to. There is just a wide range of acceptable worth amongst Tesla owners. I fall in the, "for $12k, this car better drive me home as good or better than I can" camp. However, if it was free, $1k, or maybe $20 per month I would be happy to just play with the software an go on the FSD journey with Tesla. So, my price point is really low compared to what Tesla thinks it is worth. I work from home and these features are more of a luxury/cool factor to me so it is not worth it.

On the other hand, if I had a 100 mile commute in heavy traffic everyday and this software worked reliably, truly reduced my fatigue level and improved safety then I would probably pay $3k-$5k for it but I would probably eyeing one of those full body massage chairs instead. That would help relieve me of any driving stress I had for the day.

 

[chinney]

Agreed. Knightshade did point out that the Tesla Autopilot is $0 extra with the car, which is good since that is exactly what it is worth to me based on my experiences with it. Tesla FSD at its current level of autonomy and reliability equally is worth $0 to me for reasons that I have explained. Indeed I would not agree to drive with it even as a paid beta tester, since I just don't have the mindset to deal with that sort of vehicle monitoring. FSD at a higher level of autonomy and reliability would be worth something to me, but far less than Tesla currently charges even for partial FSD. So I am not personally expecting to have FSD anytime soon.