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19" vs 21" Wheels Pros and Cons

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Tesla engineers I spoke with all said the 19 inch wheels would get about 5% more range.
Weird - I specifically asked the engineer/designer in Hawthorne who designed the aero-wheels if the knew if there would be any range difference between the regular 19" and 21" wheels - and he said that aerodynamically the wheels are basically the same - negligible difference. While a larger sidewall generally means better aero, in this particular case the 19" wheel design is more open with with the spokes being sharper than the turbine style 21" wheel spokes negating any difference.

Now, the 19" aero wheels would give about 5% more range at highway speeds.
 
Weird - I specifically asked the engineer/designer in Hawthorne who designed the aero-wheels if the knew if there would be any range difference between the regular 19" and 21" wheels - and he said that aerodynamically the wheels are basically the same - negligible difference.

I suspect the difference is due to the 21" tires having a higher moment of inertia, with more of the mass focused further from the center of rotation of the wheel...but don't know for sure if this is a fact.
 
If the life expectancy on the 21" tires is ~12000 miles would one just use the UTQG ratings to calculate the life expectancy on the 19's?

Using that I get (12000 * 440/340) = 15529 miles...

No, for at least two reasons:

1. You can't really compare UTQGs among tires from different manufacturers. As I understand it, the test that determines UTQG runs a tire through a prescribed 400 mile course for a total of 7,200 miles, and the resulting wear is extrapolated to compare to the standardized reference tire. This extrapolation is open to interpretation by the tire manufacturer, and can result in optimistic or pessimistic estimates depending on how the manufacturer views the UTQG rating. Some view it as a marketing tool, resulting in higher UTQG ratings. Others view it as an implied warranty, which results in lower UTQG ratings. In other words, the rating is only really useful when comparing tires within a given brand. Since the 19s and 21s are different brands (Goodyear vs. Continental), that comparison cannot be made.

From http://autorepair.about.com/cs/generalinfo/a/aa120603a.htm:
One little quirk: Testing tires for treadwear can be an expensive proposition. So the government merely asks the tire manufacturers to be able to justify their rating. In my experience this seems to mean different things to different people and a wide range of "justifications" are being used.

Another little quirk: Each tire manufacturer has its own philosophy about UTQG ratings, especially when it comes to the treadwear rating. Some view the rating as a huge marketing tool, while others tend to think of it as an implied warranty. Be cautious when you compare ratings - they may not be "apples to apples".

2. From what I can gather, 12,000 miles is probably a slightly pessimistic estimate unless you frequently drive pretty hard.
 
Of course you can use the UTQG to compare between manufacturers--that's the whole point of UTQG. However, what you can't do is say (12000 * 440/340) = 15529 miles because the system doesn't work that way. The UTQG is designed to help you chose your next set of tires for your current vehicle.

To correctly use the UTQG as an estimate for tire wear:

1. Find the UTQG rating on the tires on your current vehicle (it's on the sidewall). Example 300

2. Determine the number of miles you received from your current set of tires. Example 30,000

3. Find the UTQG for the candidate set of new tires. Example 400

4. Multiply 2 by (#3 divided by #1). Example 30000 * (400/300) = 40,000

Because different vehicles tend to wear tires down at different rates, you can't say that tire X will get the same wear when you change from vehicle A to vehicle B.
 
Right, I was using 440 from the 19" Goodyear Eagle's and the 340 from the 21" continentals to compare them on the Model S...

Of course you can use the UTQG to compare between manufacturers--that's the whole point of UTQG. However, what you can't do is say (12000 * 440/340) = 15529 miles because the system doesn't work that way. The UTQG is designed to help you chose your next set of tires for your current vehicle.

To correctly use the UTQG as an estimate for tire wear:

1. Find the UTQG rating on the tires on your current vehicle (it's on the sidewall). Example 300

2. Determine the number of miles you received from your current set of tires. Example 30,000

3. Find the UTQG for the candidate set of new tires. Example 400

4. Multiply 2 by (#3 divided by #1). Example 30000 * (400/300) = 40,000

Because different vehicles tend to wear tires down at different rates, you can't say that tire X will get the same wear when you change from vehicle A to vehicle B.
 
I suspect the difference is due to the 21" tires having a higher moment of inertia, with more of the mass focused further from the center of rotation of the wheel...but don't know for sure if this is a fact.

The 21" tires have the same diameter as the 19" tires, however the 21" tires likely have a bit more mass in the tread area because the tread width is slightly wider.

The 21" wheels have the mass of the rim surface further out than the 19" in wheels so there is more mass further from the centre of rotation in the 21" tires. However, because the rim surface is closer to the centre of rotation than the tire tread in either size, it has less of an effect than the mass of the tread. There is an effect but it's small (unless there is a large difference in the weight of the rim surface between the wheels (unlikely).

Most of the difference in range between the two is more likely to be due to the difference in tread compound and belt construction.
 
Right, I was using 440 from the 19" Goodyear Eagle's and the 340 from the 21" continentals to compare them on the Model S...

The fly in the ointment is that until you know what either tire will do on the Model S, you can't infer tire life from UTQG. Once a few folks have worn out some tires (both hard and easy driving style), then a more accurate estimate can be made.
 
Jerry, thanks for your info...I know you worked in the tire industry, so I'm not questioning your answer, but I'm curious if you can explain what the article I linked above means when they say
Another little quirk: Each tire manufacturer has its own philosophy about UTQG ratings, especially when it comes to the treadwear rating. Some view the rating as a huge marketing tool, while others tend to think of it as an implied warranty. Be cautious when you compare ratings - they may not be "apples to apples".

Also, http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=48 says:

Treadwear Grades

UTQG Treadwear Grades are based on actual road use in which the test tire is run in a vehicle convoy along with standardized Course Monitoring Tires. The vehicle repeatedly runs a prescribed 400-mile test loop in West Texas for a total of 7,200 miles. The vehicle can have its alignment set, air pressure checked and tires rotated every 800 miles. The test tire's and the Monitoring Tire's wear are measured during and at the conclusion of the test. The tire manufacturers then assign a Treadwear Grade based on the observed wear rates. The Course Monitoring Tire is assigned a grade and the test tire receives a grade indicating its relative treadwear. A grade of 100 would indicate that the tire tread would last as long as the test tire, 200 would indicate the tread would last twice as long, 300 would indicate three times as long, etc.

The problem with UTQG Treadwear Grades is that they are open to some interpretation on the part of the tire manufacturer because they are assigned after the tire has only experienced a little treadwear as it runs the 7,200 miles. This means that the tire manufacturers need to extrapolate their raw wear data when they are assigning Treadwear Grades, and that their grades can to some extent reflect how conservative or optimistic their marketing department is. Typically, comparing the Treadwear Grades of tire lines within a single brand is somewhat helpful, while attempting to compare the grades between different brands is not as helpful.

This would seem to imply that comparing ratings between manufacturers is not consistent. Can you explain?
 
This would seem to imply that comparing ratings between manufacturers is not consistent. Can you explain?

When the UTQG first came out there were some manufacturers violently opposed to them (Michelin being one). They rated every tire at 340--going by memory, might have been 360--other than a few performance tires rated at 50. However, market forces (e.g. consumers purchasing tires with the highest UTQG rating for the lowest price) forced them to change after a couple of years.

Basically the tire manufactures can use any UTQG rating they like as long as it doesn't overstate the test results (just like the EPA MPG numbers). However, because consumers tend to purchase based on cost and UTQG rating, they [the tire manufacturers] are pretty much forced to use a number somewhere near the high end of the spectrum or lose sales. In particular, Consumer Reports and similar reviewers/testers put a big emphasis on UTQG treadwear numbers. So, yes, there will be differences between manufacturers but they will be more like one manufacturer rating 600 while another rates at 650 or 550, rather than one at 500 and another at 250. A 10% to 15% difference in UTQG ratings isn't really significant compared to individual uses of the tires (e.g. pressure checking or lack thereof, road conditions, road surfaces, and driving habits).
 
Having just curbed my RX8 tires fairly badly this morning on a parking lot concrete curb constructed to stick out waaaaay too far, I suspect if I'd had low profile 21" rims I'd just have mangled a rim (rather than simply given it a bad scuffing).
 
Tsk, tsk! Put the coffee cup down and quit texting while you're parking. ;)
Yea, I don't do either. I damn near want to shoot people using the phone while they drive.

The parking structure downtown has some very narrow areas with concrete spots that stick out a bunch. I've curbed my tires more in the last 6 weeks at this structure than in my last 20 years of driving. Terrible design.
 
Yea, I don't do either. I damn near want to shoot people using the phone while they drive.

What dumbfounds me are people who hold the phone in front of them and use the speakerphone instead of at their ear, thinking this is somehow "hands free". WTF?

Phonewhiledriving.jpg

source: http://opinion.latimes.com/opinionla/2011/08/cellphones-and-driving-maybe-its-time-for-a-sequel-to-goofys-motor-mania.html
 
Good point, I hadn't thought of that. But still, another debunked idea still driving crazy behavior.
Perhaps they are members of the Flat Earth Society, too?

LOL!!! Lovin this thead, but back to the wheels people, back to the wheels!

My wife has stated that she'd be afraid to drive this car - a lot to do with the wheels. I sometimes think (and don't get me wrong Love her and all), but that's how she parks - by brail. Our 18" alloy rims on the Avalon are all scuffed up - mostly on the passenger side. I'm likely to just not worry about the 19's (if they do get dinged up), but I know I'll think differently with the 21's.

Good to know about this post on replacements and winter sets and costs too though: Winter wheels/tires packages for Model S
 
LOL!!! Lovin this thead, but back to the wheels people, back to the wheels!

My wife has stated that she'd be afraid to drive this car - a lot to do with the wheels. I sometimes think (and don't get me wrong Love her and all), but that's how she parks - by brail. Our 18" alloy rims on the Avalon are all scuffed up - mostly on the passenger side. I'm likely to just not worry about the 19's (if they do get dinged up), but I know I'll think differently with the 21's.

Good to know about this post on replacements and winter sets and costs too though: Winter wheels/tires packages for Model S

It sounds as though a Perf model, with a 19" wheel set bought separately, would work for you. ;) I'll be considering that second wheel set if I find myself squiggling all over the lanes.
I'm expecting delivery in December, which will be perfect timing to put those summer tires to a wintry workout. Having a TM service center in the neighborhood will be nice to get wheels faster if needed.