-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I would say it's not powerwalls, given this policy existed from since the Roadster days. The worry was mainly the cycle life of these cells (Roadster cells were worse) and the warranty liability. For the S, when they had the superchargers, it also would have allowed people to practically transport that electricity back to their home.There you have the reason why Elon axed it: To sell Powerwalls
40 KWh is plenty of energy. Can run 4 led light bulbs and a fan 5 hours each day for ~3 months! If a home has two of these cars, more!
But I'm doubtful that it will be available in US version. This
mmd
Active Member
Yeah, people buy $140k Roadster and $100k Teslas to drive to & from superchargers and kill time there only to steal some electricity at $0.13/kwh to bring home to use that! By that logic, Tesla owners aren't charging at home; they are mostly charging at superchargers for free
Most of these superchargers aren't even close to home. Depreciation hit to drive to and from the SC will be more than the value of electricity one can steal Frankly, to the extent some of you go to explain some things amazes me.The cell cycle life seems more reasonable. Would it be too much to allow this V2G only once in a while? It is for emergency back up only. I think, owners would've been fine if this was allowed, say, only 10 times a year. IIRC, the first Teslas did have V2G. It was killed later for some reason.
Edit: There is already a 4 page thread on V2H feature. Linking it here so we don't go throught the same stuff again
The survey shows ~80% folks would be interested in the V2H feature.V2grid (Vehicle to Grid) and Tesla
Last edited:
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
This reminds me of the arguments of how people buying an expensive car like the Model S would never think to freeload off the superchargers when they have cheap home charging, but that became a problem enough for Tesla to write a letter about it:Yeah, people buy $140k Roadster and $100k Teslas to drive to & from superchargers and kill time there only to steal some electricity at $0.13/kwh to bring home to use that! By that logic, Tesla owners aren't charging at home; they are mostly charging at superchargers for free
Supercharging letter from Tesla 8-13-2015
Just because you buy an expensive car doesn't mean you won't be frugal in other ways.
Edit: Apparently the average household uses only about 30kWh per day, which takes only about 15 minutes to fill at a supercharger.
No Teslas had V2G. The Roadster didn't even have DC charging. As for a limited use V2G function explicitly allowed in the warranty, I don't think there is enough demand for that for Tesla to even bother.
Last edited:
If you think about it, the cost to implement V2G means you need the equivalent of the home gateway, the 1 phase 240v inverter, the various wiring and breakers, and the install cost. Out of the $5,500 for a PowerWall and $1,000 install cost, almost 35-45% of that is duplicated in the V2G implementation. And given that cost, how often will one use V2G? What value does that bring? The PowerWall is always available at the house. Given the costs and service provided, PowerWall makes more sense than V2G. Of course, one can argue to have V2G in addition to a PowerWall install... but there is still upgraded inverter, wiring and install costs.
Been in Florida 20 years, never been flooded but lights went out almost every time.
I've also moved around for a while (moved 7 times to different areas counties) and the flooding vs lights going out is consistent across south Florida. There are few areas that truly have flood issues with the rest of the state in danger of power going out and power is typically the first thing to come back on. That time in between is really where I would use m3 battery. Not even for ac (although would be great) but hope to at least run fridge and few fans, lights.
V2G is already in CHAdeMO standard. Most Japanese EVs have that feature. Here, it is sold as a backup solution as in densely populated areas like in Japan, it is considered to be too noisy to use generators. Some people use V2G for the arbitration of solar and off peak grid. During the daytime they sell electricity @37 cents a kWh (fixed) and at the same time use the V2H (vehicle to home) to power the home. At night they charge their EVs at lower off peak rate.
This scenario has limited appeal. They are useful only if:
Has an EV and don't use on weekdays
PowerCo buys solar electricity at higher cost
Accepts a little bit larger degradation of vehicle battery
Some retired people use EVs to transport electricity from DCFC home. They have nothing to do, so they drive to closest Nissan dealership, charge for 30 minutes and back home with V2H. This way, they can get 10-15kWh every day for $20 (Nissan all-you-can-eat plan). If you purchase 300kWh every month from PowerCo it would cost $90. And 300kWh is the average electricity usage for Japanese homes. Some people have too much time and abuse the system.
This scenario has limited appeal. They are useful only if:
Has an EV and don't use on weekdays
PowerCo buys solar electricity at higher cost
Accepts a little bit larger degradation of vehicle battery
Some retired people use EVs to transport electricity from DCFC home. They have nothing to do, so they drive to closest Nissan dealership, charge for 30 minutes and back home with V2H. This way, they can get 10-15kWh every day for $20 (Nissan all-you-can-eat plan). If you purchase 300kWh every month from PowerCo it would cost $90. And 300kWh is the average electricity usage for Japanese homes. Some people have too much time and abuse the system.
If you only drive 6 k miles, why do you need a 14-50 outlet? A regular 110 will do. We drive 6k miles on our leaf and charge with a 110v outlet just fine. The difference in our power bill was not noticable before and after the leaf. But since have gone solar.
mmd
Active Member
I believe the Powerwalls have a different purpose right now. PG&E is covering a lot of the costs in hopes of daily peak shaving. But for emergency back up, a manual standby interlock switch , like the one shown below, should be enough. An extension cord to the fridge and a few lights could also work for many. You unplug the refrigerator from the wall outlet and plug that into the extension cord.
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=generator+standby+power+interlock&rh=i:aps,k:generator+standby+power+interlock
Best of all, this is a portable power pack. You go camping in the forest or partying on the beach, the clean and quiet power is there, ready to tap into. See this 1.8 kWh powerpack. Costs over $1000 and weighs 109 lbs! What should be the value of the V2H if someone can tap into ~40 kWh, or upto 100 kWh for Teslas?
But I am not at all surprised by you bashing this feature. It's simply because Teslas don't have it
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DAMSCW2/
Hajimemashite @hiroshiy san! Dojo Yoroshiku
Thanks for the info from Nissan's home country. I suspected there is something about the standard that they are putting this in cars for Japan. Toyota also talked about Mirai V2H powering homes for 7 days. But when I went to test drive the Mirai here, there was no power outlet
I had a need for exactly this situation in my "manager's office" in a rental property. It gets real hot in the afternoon during summer. Even the quietest generator @56-65 dB would be too noisy for my use. Tried A/C converter to tap from my ICE car's battery, then bought a small battery pack that could power a small table fan for ~45 mins. Finally ended up digging a trench to install wiring from one of the tenants. Installed a small sub meter that still shows 2 kWh after 2 months V2H would be ideal for these occasional power needs.PS: There will always be a small percent of abusers in any system. Nothing new here about charge theft. Good companies still build the systems so 99% of people can enjoy them, while absorbing the costs from the 1% abusers or fixing it. They don't get rid of the system. V2H is not a major cause of charge theft.
Last edited:
People are forgetting that the Leaf 2.0 has an air-cooled battery.
Do you ever wonder why all those people say "You must replace the battery every 5 years!" as a point as to why they won't buy EVs? It's not a myth. It's based on real-world experiences with the Leaf 1.0 in warm climates (even after their 2015 "lizard" battery upgrade).
Do you ever wonder why all those people say "You must replace the battery every 5 years!" as a point as to why they won't buy EVs? It's not a myth. It's based on real-world experiences with the Leaf 1.0 in warm climates (even after their 2015 "lizard" battery upgrade).
Dynastar
Member
I wonder what the TCO of a 2018 Leaf will be for buyers as opposed to those who lease. I saw someone upthread bragging about only paying $8k over four years on a lease, I bought my off-lease Leaf for less then $8k and it qualified for a new battery under warranty. That's some amazing depreciation.
chronopc
Active Member
dhanson865
Well-Known Member
I wish the Leaf had an air cooled battery. What it has is the opposite of air cooled.
It has sealed cells inside sealed modules inside a sealed casing for the pack inside a a non vented space in the car. There is no airflow around the battery pack and no airflow inside the battery pack.
It radiates heat but it does so very very very slowly as the heat has to pass through the thermal mass of the car around it.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
There are no air passages in the battery but during driving air passes under the battery and aids in cooling. This is why use of the battery while standing still heats up the battery faster than driving.
The broker who sold me a LEAF told me his personal LEAF story of thinking that pre-cooling the cabin in the hot Sacramento summer was nice for him and nice for the battery. He trashed his battery in under two years.
dhanson865
Well-Known Member
air passes under the plastic that covers the bottom of the car. The battery pack is covered by that plastic. There is no direct airflow around the battery pack. Sure moving air helps to cool the plastic on the bottom of the car and that indirectly helps to cool the pack but the effect is minimal as there is no direct thermal transfer from the pack to the outside world.
In my case I can drive home with outside air temps in the upper 70s and have the pack heat up while its in the lower 90s (measured inside the pack) during the drive as heat generated by the release of energy in the pack increases the temp more than any airflow under the car reduces temp (which is almost not at all).
Last edited:
I don't really think the air cooled battery will really be an issue. Generally I'd say it would be, from any other make. But seeing how much trouble Nissan went through with the first gen packs, I'd say these ones will probably be very solid.
The same goes for Teslas and DUs. Sure the early Model S's DUs all failed and pretty regularly. But my dual motor S had no problems yet (only about 30k miles though) and the situation seems to improve.
So do I think all M3 drive units will fail around the 30-50k mile mark. Definitely not, because if you have an issue, you're going to make sure to fix it next time.
Sure, both cars might have new issues this time around, that only depends on the companies willingness to spend money on testing and quality control, but battery thermal management for Nisan and drive units for Tesla won't be one this time.
The same goes for Teslas and DUs. Sure the early Model S's DUs all failed and pretty regularly. But my dual motor S had no problems yet (only about 30k miles though) and the situation seems to improve.
So do I think all M3 drive units will fail around the 30-50k mile mark. Definitely not, because if you have an issue, you're going to make sure to fix it next time.
Sure, both cars might have new issues this time around, that only depends on the companies willingness to spend money on testing and quality control, but battery thermal management for Nisan and drive units for Tesla won't be one this time.
Last week it was 45°C in the shade in Southern California. For a week it over 40°C. So with pavement heat (often over 60°C) during a DCFC session with CHAdeMO after you exited the freeway with a hot battery, you will probably see static temps over 60°C before charging. It won't cool sitting there since the air by the battery is 60°C.
The idea that Nissan learns from their mistakes is a theory held by folk who have not owned Nissans.
The new Leaf is... well new. IDK if temperatures like that have an effect on the new Leaf cells, nor do you.
I mean, I'd be cautious too, if I lived somewhere where is was really hot and especially if I had had a bad experience with a Leaf. But there are many that will buy a Leaf with a 4 year 50k miles warranty, knowing that the Model S DU needs replacement around that time.
So I won't try to make you buy a Leaf, while living in hot climates. I can totally understand if people stay away from it. But I don't think it will be a problem. But to be honest, I'm just a guy on the internet and a Leaf will cost you 20k, or so. So better trust your own experience, I won't refund you the money.
Similar threads
