Oh god not this argument...
Let's just go straight to nobody owns cars except for Tesla. People own nothing, you are simply wage slaves of the state.
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7.1 AutoPilot Nag
- Thread starter boonedocks
- Start date
Oh god not this argument...
Let's just go straight to nobody owns cars except for Tesla. People own nothing, you are simply wage slaves of the state.
I wonder if the increased nagging is here to stay on this generation of autopilot hardware, or will get reduced with further software development. If the nagging is merely the result of worried attorneys inside Tesla HQ, I fear it might be here to stay. Then if AP 2.0 has more redundancy and cameras, the lawyers' fears might be eased because they could construct an argument saying the car is simply statistically less likely to crash in the event a driver falls asleep - and thus there is less need for the nag.
green1
Active Member
This part is 100%true, and I am exercising that right
This part is 100% false. The contract and legal obligations tesla have with relation to the warranty and service agreements do not allow them to force a change to the software that the owner does not agree to.
Todd Burch
14-Year Member
Elon hasn't been one to be "bullied" by the lawyers. He tends to stick his company's neck out there a little more than most. (For instance, there isn't a warning you have to agree to every time you drive the car like you see on GPS systems, thank God).
My guess is that Tesla gets the message that they probably swung too far in the other direction with 7.1, and it'll end up swinging back to the nags of 7.0.
The 7.0 nags seemed to mostly occur at the right time as far as "uh oh, I'm not confident about what to do here". The 7.1 nags seems more focused on "hey you, are you awake?"
I emailed Elon many months ago and suggested that any interaction with the car whatsoever--such as changing the volume, rolling up a window, maximizing an app, etc. should reset any nag timer--because all of those things are indicators that the driver is awake and conscious.
Although 7.0 would be preferable, if this were implemented it would at least be an improvement over 7.1 without sacrificing the "consciousness check".
My guess is that Tesla gets the message that they probably swung too far in the other direction with 7.1, and it'll end up swinging back to the nags of 7.0.
The 7.0 nags seemed to mostly occur at the right time as far as "uh oh, I'm not confident about what to do here". The 7.1 nags seems more focused on "hey you, are you awake?"
I emailed Elon many months ago and suggested that any interaction with the car whatsoever--such as changing the volume, rolling up a window, maximizing an app, etc. should reset any nag timer--because all of those things are indicators that the driver is awake and conscious.
Although 7.0 would be preferable, if this were implemented it would at least be an improvement over 7.1 without sacrificing the "consciousness check".
I was way under 10 seconds, more like 5 words. It was just not working. Rebooted both screens and it did not help.
If you want to argue licensing, I've never seen anything even close to resembling a license agreement when it comes to the car and the software running on it.
It's packed with a bunch of MIT, GPLv2, and GPLv3 stuff though. Wouldn't be much of a stretch, in the absence of an actual license to assume it falls under one of the licenses listed in /usr/share... all of which are OSS licenses...
Add to that Tesla making a big deal about opening their patents and such and I think I'd have a hell of an arguement.
It's packed with a bunch of MIT, GPLv2, and GPLv3 stuff though. Wouldn't be much of a stretch, in the absence of an actual license to assume it falls under one of the licenses listed in /usr/share... all of which are OSS licenses...
Add to that Tesla making a big deal about opening their patents and such and I think I'd have a hell of an arguement.
Soolim
Member
My observation so far on the 7.1 AS is that the contrast detection has changed (worse). Driving on the asphalt road, no problem with lane detection, approaching the bridge built with concrete, lane marking undetected even when it is clearly visible to me. AS gets disabled because I will correct the misbehavior.
I like that idea, except that the passenger can touch the 17" screen as well. Seems like something that can easily be implemented however.
green1
Active Member
If the passenger is touching the touchscreen, we'll assume the driver is still awake. One of the great things about Tesla USED TO BE that they trusted the driver, hence the lack of lawyer dialogs every time you use the nav.
Just finished a ~1500 mile road trip.
The autopilot nags are definitely more ridiculous in 7.1. Completely pointless. I ended up disabling the hands-on requirement in the autopilot dev app (for those late to the party, I rooted my car) because it was far too annoying every few minutes to have my music interrupted by "Hold the steering wheel" beeps (yes, I know it doesn't immediately beep, but I generally watch the road not the screen). You know what? After doing that the trip was awesome. I still had to disengage autosteer and manually steer away from basically every single truck I passed on the left because of whatever is causing the car to love to hug the right lane marker in 7.1 (even when it clearly shows on the screen we're over or on the line and approaching a truck that is over or on the line). Other than that, when conditions are clear it was great. I actually went around 150 miles with basically no input at one point on I-81.
This is how it *should* be. You know, actually useful. If they fix that right line hugging bug then it'd be pretty much perfect.
The autopilot nags are definitely more ridiculous in 7.1. Completely pointless. I ended up disabling the hands-on requirement in the autopilot dev app (for those late to the party, I rooted my car) because it was far too annoying every few minutes to have my music interrupted by "Hold the steering wheel" beeps (yes, I know it doesn't immediately beep, but I generally watch the road not the screen). You know what? After doing that the trip was awesome. I still had to disengage autosteer and manually steer away from basically every single truck I passed on the left because of whatever is causing the car to love to hug the right lane marker in 7.1 (even when it clearly shows on the screen we're over or on the line and approaching a truck that is over or on the line). Other than that, when conditions are clear it was great. I actually went around 150 miles with basically no input at one point on I-81.
This is how it *should* be. You know, actually useful. If they fix that right line hugging bug then it'd be pretty much perfect.
And get rid of the new nag.
I did a 3000 mile round trip in December (7.0 Autopilot) and it was awesome - like you, 100+ miles at a time with little to no input. Now it's nagging for no good reason every few minutes.
I'll end up living with whatever Tesla forces upon us because I'm not "rooting" my car. I sure hope they reconsider the current state of naggy-ness...
green1
Active Member
Out of curiosity, you've said that disabling the nag completely gets rid of it, even when it's appropriate, at what point does it tell you something is wrong now? does it at least warn you with the "take over immediately"? or does it simply start driving off the road?
Yeah that's what I meant. Fix the nag and the bias to the right and things would be great.
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Yeah, I tested this out a bit more in places where I know it would have insufficient input.
Surprisingly, the path planning seems to work rather well even with no lane markers or a vehicle ahead. Confidence is very low, and it drives a little like a drunk, but it seems to know where the road is at least and stays on it. Once it loses the road entirely (as in, trying to drive through a T-junction or something) it still gives the "TAKE OVER IMMEDIATELY" thing. However it's definitely much less likely to jump to that with the hands-on requirement disabled.
There is a road nearby that has full lane markings, then they vanish as it turns into a slightly narrower private paved road with no markings. Asphalt road, grass on sides. At the end of that road (maybe a quarter mile) the road T's in both directions. The car will drive fine up and on to the unmarked portion and continue to drive on that stretch. It does somewhat center itself in the road at this point, mostly, but will bounce around a little bit as the road curves. It seems to recognize where the road edges are and stays within them even with no markings. The IC display shows the lighter road area, but no lanes, and it jumps around a bit on the screen. When I get to the end of the road where it T's, the car tries to turn slightly towards whatever side it's already on, then gives up when it can't see any more road with "TAKE OVER IMMEDIATELY". I tried this a couple of times at maybe 20 MPH. In normal mode it tells me to take over immediately when approaching the unmarked portion.
Another example is an overpass on the interstate nearby that has no markings whatsoever. The road goes from asphalt to unmarked concrete that extends maybe 150 ft. Normally the car immediately fails with "TAKE OVER IMMEDIATELY" here consistently. In hands-on-disabled mode, it continues on mostly straight, then latches to the lane on the other side a few feet from the end of the overpass and does a kind of snap-to-grid motion to center up.
So it seems the confidence level in hands-on and hands-off modes are a bit different.
Thinking about this, I could even live with an "elastic" setting - give me a setting that requires me to acknowledge the risk and upon doing so get rid of the "no technical reason" nags. This could reset each time the car power cycles.
Not ideal like 7.0 but something...
I'd go for that. I'd even personally be willing to sign a waiver absolving Tesla of any and all liability regarding autopilot since I'm confident enough in the tech to believe that it's not going to override me and drive me into a wall or anything crazy and unavoidable.
green1
Active Member
Well, you and Elon may be the only 2 people driving around with an un-crippled AP... I really wish I had more confidence and knowledge towards rooting my car....
On my recent ~1700 mile road trip (1500 trip, 200 destination driving) I used AP extensively. The nag was annoying, but not aggravating enough to not use it. What is aggravating is to know that the vehicle is capable of much more, and that it has been crippled because there are idiots out there who had to put videos on YouTube of themselves doing idiotic things. Tesla had to do something. I would much prefer a waiver that I have to OK each time I get into the car vs. the nags. Don't let the .001% of owners ruin it for the rest of us. I hate to say it, but I suspect the only way we're going to get Tesla to change the nag behavior if we start a letter/feedback campaign. Enough owners have to speak up and be vocal about their disappointment that Tesla has to respond.
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