Msnow - I am sorry, I have read so many threads concerning range issues. I probably vented on the wrong thread. I was not responding to any particular individual, but was a general response. I should probably just continue reading and not responding. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.
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ArtInCT
Always Learning
Hi Guys:
Over on the Tesla Motors Forum (the one under My Tesla), there is an interesting thread known as the Supplement to the Owner's Manual.
If you have not seen or read this thread please do.
What is interesting is that there are a few paragraphs devoted to Estimated Range.
You all need to read those paragraphs.
If you are lazy and want the quick take... cut some black electric tape, and put it over the Estimated Range Number and then ENJOY your car.
Over on the Tesla Motors Forum (the one under My Tesla), there is an interesting thread known as the Supplement to the Owner's Manual.
If you have not seen or read this thread please do.
What is interesting is that there are a few paragraphs devoted to Estimated Range.
You all need to read those paragraphs.
If you are lazy and want the quick take... cut some black electric tape, and put it over the Estimated Range Number and then ENJOY your car.
Hi Art -
I volkerized that thread but couldn't find it. If you can help me by copying the link I would appreciate it. I've been following your electrical project here for weeks now and know that you are close to ordering your Tesla so this may interest you (or not). What's happening here for many is that the ~6% extra range people bought seems to have very quickly dissipated. For dozens a third to half of that range dropped the most in the first few weeks of ownership and continues to go down.
If you're saying that the number can't be trusted I think there's some validity to that but unfortunately many of the apps rely on that number. So real or not it's an issue that you can't just tape over.
I brought this up to my Service Advisor yesterday while my seat belts were being tested and he told me it was indeed unusual and is looking into it but his initial thought was that it is a calibration or leveling issue that will correct over time.
None of this means I'm not enjoying the car. I love it.
UPDATED:
I think I found what you were referring to but it's called "THE OWNER'S MANUAL COMPANION". It's been around a long time under the name "FAQ" by JT. Is this it? THE OWNERS MANUAL COMPANION | Forums | Tesla Motors
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BertL
Active Member
I know you are concerned. A number of us with 90Ds are keeping an eye on this ...but honestly, I don't get worried about a single digit change. My 90D displayed rated range has proven (see previous posts) to jump +/- 2 miles in a matter of seconds. Literally. As such, I have proven at least to myself that however Tesla is calculating this number it is some sort of rough estimate -- not an absolute. I would encourage you to perhaps become more focused on the trend, not an absolute number. Are you keeping a log of your recently charged 90% rated range, along with date, temperature and firmware level installed on your MS? If not, I'd suggest you should. I'm additionally making a note of the few times I charge to 100% just in case something comes of that as well.
I personally try to go into a more logical mindset when I get concerned about something -- especially one where I can deal with some amount of facts vs getting fixated on "Oh my, isn't this horrible? What if?" sort of things. There is at least one set of data presented thus far that would lead one to believe there may be a correlation to temp and how rated range presents itself -- it's not 90D-specific (battery tech) though. There is perhaps another thought process that these changes flatten out or slow over some period of time -- although I can't say there is enough at least for me to start formulating anything close to a trend. IMHO, longer-term facts are all that will prove what is or is not happening from an owner's POV.
I'm now at day 48 since delivery, and my 90% is down only 1 mile, 255 to 254, (although some days it's down at 253, then goes back up) -- not enough for me to even blink at, except for my having read this thread which heightened my antenna and possible future concern on the subject... My daily mean temp hasn't changed much -- 66F on day of delivery to 70F yesterday, with a low of only 54F (not trying to rub that in!) over that month and a half, but there certainly is no correlation with my limited data points. OTOH, I was just scanning temps in Montreal, and as I'd expect, you've had much wider daily mean change from ~30F to 60F up-and-down-and-back in that same timespan, varying even more widely from day-to-day sometimes than we encounter here in SoCal, with some of your coldest numbers again just yesterday where you are at least from my quick scan of Weather Underground... Hummm.
Hang in there. Try to stay factual.
Good luck -- and enjoy that MS!A little friendly advice. I would take more interest in the following thread because I have a hunch that it's related:
P90D Supercharging Data - Page 5
I bet the range "loss" is tied to this in some way. My first suspicion is there is some reason Tesla is holding back on the 90 kWh pack. Maybe the new chemistry cannot handle charge rates equivalent to those of the 85 kWh. Or, maybe the answer is more simple. Tesla still hasn't optimized the BMS for the 90 kWh and this could throw off the taper curve as well as the range estimate.
Also, I will note it here, but I don't think it's related. On my old pack, the SpC taper worsened as the pack aged. As the internal resistance of the cells increase they are unable to accommodate the same charge rates.
P90D Supercharging Data - Page 5
I bet the range "loss" is tied to this in some way. My first suspicion is there is some reason Tesla is holding back on the 90 kWh pack. Maybe the new chemistry cannot handle charge rates equivalent to those of the 85 kWh. Or, maybe the answer is more simple. Tesla still hasn't optimized the BMS for the 90 kWh and this could throw off the taper curve as well as the range estimate.
Also, I will note it here, but I don't think it's related. On my old pack, the SpC taper worsened as the pack aged. As the internal resistance of the cells increase they are unable to accommodate the same charge rates.
Thursday I did a 100% charge (from 16%), and I got 278 rated miles. That down from 283 I got when I picked up my 90D 2 months ago. It was an inventory car with 800 Miles on it, so it already had some of it's initial loss at that time.
My 90% charges on Friday and Saturday each gave 250, down from 257 just 2 months ago, and exactly what it was before I did the 100% charge. So it looks like going down low and range charging did nothing to improve or recalibrate the range.
I'm already at the range loss I had in my first S85 after almost 2 years and $35k miles. And I'm only a few months in and have only 2256 miles on this one.
I'm hopefully it's just a software issue that will be sorted out, but if t's not, between having to turn of Range Mode to stop the front motor squealing constant and low speed, and the rapid loss of charging range, the 90D's effective range seem like it will be about the same as the S85 after a year to so. Which is very disappointing.
My 90% charges on Friday and Saturday each gave 250, down from 257 just 2 months ago, and exactly what it was before I did the 100% charge. So it looks like going down low and range charging did nothing to improve or recalibrate the range.
I'm already at the range loss I had in my first S85 after almost 2 years and $35k miles. And I'm only a few months in and have only 2256 miles on this one.
I'm hopefully it's just a software issue that will be sorted out, but if t's not, between having to turn of Range Mode to stop the front motor squealing constant and low speed, and the rapid loss of charging range, the 90D's effective range seem like it will be about the same as the S85 after a year to so. Which is very disappointing.
ArtInCT
Always Learning
It's me the OP chiming in again.
In my previous post last weekend, I dropped to a 90% 247 (delivered; it was at 258), obviously frustrated.
This morning, not even a full week later, I just didn't lose 1; but 2 more miles to 245 @ 90%
I drove straight to my local dealer to voice my displeasure.
They've agreed to take my car in on December 9th, and if they don't find an obvious cause, will remove my battery pack and send it to Fresno for repair.
They'll install a new 90kw battery pack until mine is returned.
I'm very happy with this turn of events from my SA. :smile:
Will keep you all posted as events unfold.
Happy Thanksgiving!!
Ron
In my previous post last weekend, I dropped to a 90% 247 (delivered; it was at 258), obviously frustrated.
This morning, not even a full week later, I just didn't lose 1; but 2 more miles to 245 @ 90%
I drove straight to my local dealer to voice my displeasure.
They've agreed to take my car in on December 9th, and if they don't find an obvious cause, will remove my battery pack and send it to Fresno for repair.
They'll install a new 90kw battery pack until mine is returned.
I'm very happy with this turn of events from my SA. :smile:
Will keep you all posted as events unfold.
Happy Thanksgiving!!
Ron
Canuck
Well-Known Member
Interesting! I wonder how they can "repair" the range loss? I see the problem as one of the 3 possible causes:
1. The algorithm.
2. Premature degradation.
3. Certain cells have gone bad.
Only #3 can be "repaired". #1 has nothing to do with the pack, and #2 requires a whole new pack. I'm no battery expert so I'm just guessing. It will be interesting to see what happens. Thanks for the update.
And Happy Thanksgiving! to all my American friends.
Mike Tuccelli
Member
It matters because he paid $3k for 6% extra range (about 16 miles) of which all but a few disappeared very quickly. Agree that Tesla will do the right thing.
Great news Ron, have a fun, safe trip.
Maybe you can ask them how Tesla overcame the usual reduced cycle life problems associated with adding silicon to the anode. The increased silicon adds capacity by allowing the anode to suck up more lithium ions but at the expense of reduced cycle life. How did they overcome this?
Tesla is not going to share that information with the public, or owners, or journalists, or anyone outside of those Tesla employees who have a legitimate reason to know that information.
This is the worry and given the track record of uncertainty (it's relatively new technology as much as Teslas optimistic marketing dept) it would be unfortunate to say the least if the change in technology to deliver the longer range actually over time resulted in less range due to increased degradation.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I'm going to take a wild guess that Tesla and Panasonic have done extensive testing of the new battery chemistry before putting into thousands of vehicles....
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Not that there couldn't be something physically wrong with the OP's pack, but I doubt it's a problem with the fundamental chemistry.
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