ALL CyberTruck discussion

[Daniel in SD]

EPA numbers are for comparison.

You can’t really use EPA numbers to compare different vehicles because they use different “adjustment factors”
The Cybertruck has the best adjustment factor of any EV.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

The Cybertruck has the best adjustment factor of any EV.

I believe this may be false. Currently the Model Y holds the crown at 0.768.

We don't have the information to get Cybertruck scaling. But it appears it will be similar, using just the UDDS and assumptions of 8% worse on
"highway" test, it ends up around 0.767 or so. But that's a complete guess. If Cybertruck AWD A/T gets worse than 396 miles on the HWFET, then it will probably claim the crown of best adjustment factor.

(The information about ~0.82 published by wugz on Reddit is not correct as far as I can tell - it's based on a misunderstanding of the range of the vehicle - specifically, which EPA range corresponds to the UDDS result. wugz assumed that the 430-mile UDDS range resulted in 340-mile EPA (the 318-mile range had not yet been announced at the time of that post). But actually that 430-mile UDDS probably is the one that is done with A/T tires and results in 318-mile EPA range (A/T).)

You can (indirectly) use EPA numbers to compare the vehicles, but you need to normalize them to 0.7 first (you need to know the original scaling factor used, which is in the public domain, provided by the EPA, eventually) to get rid of the effect of good performance on the other three test cycles which inflates the scalar.

 

[jabloomf1230]

The days of driving 75-85 mph in some states is coming to an end. Speed cameras are multiplying like bunnies, because they are more cost effective than tying up radar equipped trooper cars. This observation is going to tick off a lot of people here, but you know it's going to happen.

 

[jerry33]

The days of driving 75-85 mph in some states is coming to an end. Speed cameras are multiplying like bunnies, because they are more cost effective than tying up radar equipped trooper cars. This observation is going to tick off a lot of people here, but you know it's going to happen.

I don't see how driving the speed limit is going to get you a ticket.

 

[Daniel in SD]

I believe this may be false. Currently the Model Y holds the crown at 0.768.

We don't have the information to get Cybertruck scaling. But it appears it will be similar, using just the UDDS and assumptions of 10% worse on highway, it ends up around 0.767 or so. But that's a complete guess.

(The information about 0.8+ published by wugz on Reddit is not correct as far as I can tell - it's based on a misunderstanding of the range of the vehicle - specifically, which EPA range corresponds to the UDDS result.)

Ah. I had seen the .8+ number.
Anyway, looks like it’s largest discrepancy between EPA range and 70mph highway range (other than the also brick like Spark EV).
Rivian R1T did 289mi (314mi EPA) in this test. Rivian uses 0.7 adjustment factor and is more aerodynamic so I guess it all adds up.

 

[tivoboy]

The days of driving 75-85 mph in some states is coming to an end. Speed cameras are multiplying like bunnies, because they are more cost effective than tying up radar equipped trooper cars. This observation is going to tick off a lot of people here, but you know it's going to happen.

But speed cameras still use radar to measure speed, so anyone trying to effectively drive at posted speed+, should be using a high quality detector, or on the road best practices for being 2nd in line/queue.

And really, speed cameras on HIGHWAYS are not that prevalent. Often at state crossings, or traveling through and within city areas

 

[jabloomf1230]

I don't see how driving the speed limit is going to get you a ticket.

Only 15 US states have a maximum speed limit for rural expressways of either equal to or greater than 75 mph. The vast majority of US drivers are located in more developed areas of the country where the speed limits are 55 to 65 mph. It's on these roads where speed cameras are being implemented. You're welcome to go 80 on one of these roads and test your theory.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Rivian R1T did 289mi (314mi EPA) in this test. Rivian uses 0.7 adjustment factor and is more aerodynamic so I guess it all adds up.

Which Rivian? You have to be really careful about these comparisons.

Which Rivian gets 314mi EPA? I see 307-mi EPA for R1T Dual Large 20" A/T. Am I missing one? I can't see a 314mi EPA in Rivian inventory.

Rivian uses adjustment factors of 0.707 to 0.728 depending on the vehicle. I don't know what the factor is for the R1T Dual Large 20" A/T; it's not listed in EPA doc I am looking at though it is probably possible to figure it out from the detailed test results.

They use 0.728 for the R1T Large 20", FWIW. (Which is actually a Quad motor I think). Which has 289-mi EPA range. (A/T I assume; it gets 64MPGe).

The 2024 R1S Quad Large 20" A/T uses an adjustment factor of 0.749. 274-mi EPA range.

There are a ridiculous number of Rivian vehicle types; it's hard to keep track.

In their defense having manufacturers choose their own "adjustment factor" to get the range they want is ridiculous.

I agree.
The adjustment factors aren't strictly chosen by the manufacturer though. The better they do on the 20F cold cycle, the hot A/C cycle, and the other cycle (slightly higher speed? Not sure, don't remember, would have to look it up), the higher a scalar they can use. It's a formula.

I agree it's stupid though because these cycles all reduce range so it makes no sense to inflate a value that correlates with best-achievable range because a vehicle happened to do better in adverse conditions.

Just do a 70-80mph highway test for all vehicles, in addition to the current "around-town" efficiency/range test (which also matters, arguably more - but not for people who want to know the range).

 

[Daniel in SD]

Which Rivian? You have to be really careful about these comparisons.

Which Rivian gets 314mi EPA? I see 307-mi EPA for R1T Dual Large 20" A/T. Am I missing one? I can't see a 314mi EPA in Rivian inventory.

Rivian uses adjustment factors of 0.707 to 0.728 depending on the vehicle. I don't know what the factor is for the R1T Dual Large 20" A/T; it's not listed in EPA doc I am looking at though it is probably possible to figure it out from the detailed test results.

They use 0.728 for the R1T Large 20", FWIW. (RWD). Which has 289-mi EPA range. (A/T I assume; it gets 69MPGe).



I agree.
The adjustment factors aren't strictly chosen by the manufacturer though. The better they do on the 20F cold cycle, the hot A/C cycle, and the other cycle (slightly higher speed? Not sure, don't remember, would have to look it up), the higher a scalar they can use. It's a formula.

I agree it's stupid though because these cycles all reduce range so it makes no sense to inflate a value that correlates with best-achievable range because a vehicle happened to do better in adverse conditions.

Just do a 70-80mph highway test for all vehicles, in addition to the current "around-town" efficiency/range test (which also matters, arguably more - but not for people who want to know the range).

Manufacturers can choose to use 0.7 adjustment factor. Anyway it’s all very confusing and the bottom line is you can’t use headline EPA numbers to compare different vehicles.
I have no idea why EVs and ICE vehicles are tested with different cycles.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Manufacturers can choose to use 0.7 adjustment factor. Anyway it’s all very confusing and the bottom line is you can’t use headline EPA numbers to compare different vehicles.
I have no idea why EVs and ICE vehicles are tested with different cycles.

This is not helpful because I would have to watch the video. Which Rivian was it?

I'm going to go with an R1T Quad Large 20" visually.

This vehicle has a range of 289 miles EPA, not 314. Impressive that they got 289 miles on it (according to you; I didn't watch the video). Very good.

Now I understand my confusion - if they don't specify on EPA website, it's a Quad motor. Except for 2024. There's no RWD Rivian I guess?

 

[Daniel in SD]

This is not helpful because I would have to watch the video. Which Rivian was it?

I'm going to go with an R1T Quad Large 20".

This vehicle has a range of 289 miles EPA, not 314. Impressive that they got 289 miles on it (according to you; I didn't watch the video). Very good.

this one is 314mi:

2022 Rivian R1T

Fuel Economy of the 2022 Rivian R1T. Compare the gas mileage and greenhouse gas emissions of the 2022 Rivian R1T side-by-side with other cars and trucks

www.fueleconomy.gov

I was just going from video description.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

this one is 314mi:

2022 Rivian R1T

Fuel Economy of the 2022 Rivian R1T. Compare the gas mileage and greenhouse gas emissions of the 2022 Rivian R1T side-by-side with other cars and trucks

www.fueleconomy.gov

I was just going from video description.

Yeah, I finally found that one. Which is a Quad motor apparently. It's super confusing because it doesn't specify Quad (in 2024 they do, which made me think things that do not specify Quad are not Quad). Anyway that vehicle with 314-mile range no longer exists according to Rivian Inventory. It's now 289 miles EPA. Wonder if they changed the tires? It used a 0.721 adjustment factor for 2022 314-mile range; MPGe was 70.

I haven't looked into the EPA docs to sort out what happened and I'm not going to.

was just going from video description

Yeah, that wasn't visible without hovering. But visually identifiable from the color of the brakes I guess.

 

[CyberShy]

So that means less than 200 miles as a practical matter with 75-85 mph speed limits. Wow! Range extender is pretty much mandatory.

Note: Kyle’s results are with All Terrain tires (which is what they are all coming with right now). This was Not All Season tires and obviously not summer tires (how summer-y can a truck tire get?).

And it was 48F outside.

The 340 may be achievable in better weather.

 

[uscbucsfan]

Note: Kyle’s results are with All Terrain tires (which is what they are all coming with right now). This was Not All Season tires and obviously not summer tires (how summer-y can a truck tire get?).

And it was 48F outside.

The 340 may be achievable in better weather.

No.

Not at 70 mph.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

The 340 may be achievable in better weather.

No it will not be possible. They extracted 124kWh out of the pack since it started warm. Unlikely to be able to extract a ton more at warmer temps since it is allegedly a 123kWh pack (we still don't know, officially, what the usable actually is - we just know nominally it is a 123kWh pack).

The air will be thinner at higher temperatures, which will help some. But not by 34%. The tires won't get you there either; they might get you 10% max (that would be about 40-50Wh/mi which would be a lot to expect from a tire change). Conditions were dry. If you draft off a big rig (there was no traffic here so it's a worst case from that perspective) you might get substantial gains. But not 340 miles.

Plus the range of this vehicle is 318 miles, not 340 miles.

 

[kabin]

The days of driving 75-85 mph in some states is coming to an end. Speed cameras are multiplying like bunnies, because they are more cost effective than tying up radar equipped trooper cars. This observation is going to tick off a lot of people here, but you know it's going to happen.

Not necessarily. It depends heavily on what the local voters want. And some cities even discovered they aren't cost effective or legal. Some jurisdictions require a image of the violating driver to match the vehicle owner. Some jurisdictions require warning signs for photo radar areas. And the issue of where to mail the ticket and be certain the violator received it. Lots of loose ends.

 

[RobStark]

Yeah, I finally found that one. Which is a Quad motor apparently. It's super confusing because it doesn't specify Quad (in 2024 they do, which made me think things that do not specify Quad are not Quad). Anyway that vehicle with 314-mile range no longer exists according to Rivian Inventory. It's now 289 miles EPA. Wonder if they changed the tires? It used a 0.721 adjustment factor for 2022 314-mile range; MPGe was 70.

I haven't looked into the EPA docs to sort out what happened and I'm not going to.


View attachment 1005870


Yeah, that wasn't visible without hovering. But visually identifiable from the color of the brakes I guess.

Quad Motor with Large Pack exist in the configurator with 21" road tires is rated at 314 miles of range. With 20" all terrain tires it has 289 miles of range.

Before Dual Motor existed it was pointless to specify Quad Motor. Because they were all Quad Motor.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Quad Motor with Large Pack exist in the configurator with 21" road tires is rated at 314 miles of range.

It clearly existed at one point in 2022 (with 20” tires of some form) but I see it no longer. I could just be extraordinarily dumb.

I see 328. R1T Quad 21” Road. Not sure what I am missing.

 

[mongo]

Before Dual Motor existed it was pointless to specify Quad Motor. Because they were all Quad Motor.

At the risk of starting the Great War, it appears it was not pointless...
FWIW the Rivian VIN decoder from 2021 had Dual and Quad entries.

 

[CyberGus]

But speed cameras still use radar to measure speed, so anyone trying to effectively drive at posted speed+, should be using a high quality detector

What if the speed cameras license FSD, and measure speed with only Vision