-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Another tragic fatality with a semi in Florida. This time a Model 3
- Thread starter Az_Rael
- Start date
- Status
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Yes. This is all covered earlier in this thread. The car traveled 1680 feet down the road before coming to a stop in the median (it entered the median about 425 feet past the impact site). There was a lot of vehicle debris and debris of a biological nature on the road in the intervening area (to be horribly specific, brain material, etc. - the guy was half decapitated, AFAIK). Anything higher than 3' 6" off the ground was removed from the vehicle.
The car was operational and fully functional, screen worked, etc. The restraint control module was woken up but did not deploy airbags. (It was an "active frontal near deployment.") As detailed earlier Autosteer was engaged at 69mph (actual speed ~68mph) 9.9 seconds before the crash.
The driver's phone was ejected from the vehicle so it may have been held at the time of the collision (hard to know).
Last edited:
Dan203
Active Member
dhanson865
Well-Known Member
AEB would have reduced the speed automatically but would not have stopped.
"If driving 29 mph (46 km/h) or faster, the brakes are released after Automatic Emergency Braking has reduced your driving speed by 25 mph (40 km/h). For example, if Automatic Emergency Braking applies braking when driving 56 mph (90 km/h), it releases the brakes when your speed has been reduced to 31 mph (50 km/h)."
So if he was doing about 65 mph it would have hit the semi trailer doing about 40 mph.
Between the 25 mph slower impact and an actual crossbar (side wall as you called it) preventing the decapitation risk and the bar (side wall) triggering airbags he could have lived.
As was airbags weren't triggered and hit slid under the trailer still doing about 65 mph.
edit: as it so happens we have video of what a lesser car survives in this scenario at 40 mph. And that's a 2009 Chevy Malibu which is not as safe as a Tesla.
So seeing that I'd say the Tesla driver would still very much be alive if that trailer had the proper side guards.
In Tuesday's test, a 2009 Chevrolet Malibu struck the center of a 53-foot-long dry van trailer at 40 mph. The outcome was similar to the 35 mph test with the AngelWing. The side guard bent but didn't allow the car to go underneath the trailer, and the car's airbags and safety belt properly restrained the dummy in the driver seat. Measures taken from the dummy showed there would be a low likelihood of injuries in a similar real-world crash.
uggh, so not only would he have survived but he might have just gotten out and walked away.
Last edited:
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
I’m sure AEB would have caused the driver to look up from their phone. Though it probably would not activate until a collision was unavoidable.
Unfortunately accident severity goes up with the square of speed so 68 mph is nearly 3 times more energy than 40mph. I wish they would do some of these crash tests at high speeds to illustrate that.
The dummies head isn’t all that far from the edge of the trailer in that picture. I’m skeptical that design would prevent underride at 68mph in a 4000lb car.
dhanson865
Well-Known Member
It prevents underide because it prevents the collision from being at 68mph.
If the sidebar is there with aero shield it is visible to camera and AEB kicks in reducing speed. Yes the collision would be unavoidable at that point but it'll still scrub off 20+ mph in the last moments before impact.
Also your point about the dummies head is kind of odd considering that dummy was in a 2009 Chevrolet, clearly not as safe in a crash as a Tesla from any year let alone a 2018 Tesla that we are talking about in this thread.
He didn’t have the Auto High Beams on if you read the report (Page 11 of the Human Factual Report):
“In addition, the vehicle autonomous driving features were also activated through this interface. Based on the data, the headlights of the vehicle were on in low beam status and this status did not change for at least 45 seconds prior to crash, indicating that this vehicle was not the source of the “flickering” headlight that the International driver mentioned.”
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Skimmed it. Missed that. Thanks. Good to know.
Just seems like the driver never saw the Tesla. Or just assumed he would stop, though it did not sound like it was busy enough that early to warrant rushing things/forcing the issue.
He saw the Tesla. If you read through the report it says he saw the headlights of two southbound cars, let one pass. The Tesla had not passed.
“....departed at 6:16 a.m. The video also showed that as the International driver approached the stop sign at the end of the private driveway, he applied his brakes and slowed, but did not come to a full stop before entering US 441. He entered US 441 after a southbound vehicle passed. He continued across US 441 towards the northbound lanes and applied the brakes as the tractor entered the crossover. The Tesla collided with the bottom of the semitrailer about one second after the brake application and it continued south on US 441 after the collision.”
Months ago I felt the responsibility for this death rested on the trucker. Still do. No way a vehicle that size, length and slow speed should have pulled out like he did with oncoming traffic. We now know a lot more from the reports and photos. The fact that it was still rather dark and headlights of the cars could be seen means he was aware of oncoming traffic. His poor judgment cause the death of the driver. The Tesla driver had no chance to avoid this. For the truck/trailer to pull out with the car that close to it at 1.5 seconds before impact and block its full path across the roadway and beyond in both directions right and left, was totally reckless and really makes me angry he was out there driving. We’re not talking like the Tesla had much warning that the trucker was going to pull out in front of him like this. Sitting up high in his cab above the roadway with the traffic (Tesla) to his immediate left of his driver’s side of the cab, he had a good view.
Thankfully there was video from the farm and from the Tesla to help understand what happened. Not all accident victims get that documentation.
Last edited:
Fernand
Active Member
It's his reporting the "hit and run" that's most macabre. Hey, a car left a head and tried to run away.
And if the driver had stooped down low enough to pick up his phone, he might have lived. Bizarre stuff happens.
And if the driver had stooped down low enough to pick up his phone, he might have lived. Bizarre stuff happens.
That's a terrible way to die.
But the driver's family cannot blame anyone else but the driver
But the driver's family cannot blame anyone else but the driver
CertLive
Member
This is sad I remember reading it in the news poor guy. I think the message is you have to pay attention at all times and that is the best you can do. Its not really the way any of us want have to learn from someones loss of life. You see at this point in time the TM3 is not full self driving and if any of you have put on AP you know it can do some quirky things still. When it comes to the breaking side of things you cant really have any car that senses a situation and hits the breaks to 0 because that in itself can cause accidents at higher speeds. 1. You could still have time to avoid the crash with a turn so you need some movement. 2. You obviously by the time the car has seen the potential collision and started to slow you down should have hammered the break yourself with your attention. But this is the state of play as of at the moment and if this needs more reinforcement and larger warning signs to that part of the drivers manual then so be it. When you finally can take your eyes off the road because FSD is a thing and is legal then I hope one day to hear of stories that the AI was able to take action quicker and avoid potential accidents and bring road death statistics down.
Questions I have is there a view from the AI,s point of view of the trailer? Did it draw a box around the trailer or just truck? Did it know it was even there with the view it had? So if AP was allowed total control of the cars breaking and wheel turn outside lane limits was it up to the task on the software version?
Its like there is a YouTube video of someones Tesla avoiding a line of ducks and moving to the right hand lane on autopilot. There is nothing in the manual to say the car will attempt to avoid animals. Rabbits have jumped in front of my car at speed and it feels like only me cares about them. Do the cars on their current firmware now react to this very situation discussed in any way different than before this accident?
Questions I have is there a view from the AI,s point of view of the trailer? Did it draw a box around the trailer or just truck? Did it know it was even there with the view it had? So if AP was allowed total control of the cars breaking and wheel turn outside lane limits was it up to the task on the software version?
Its like there is a YouTube video of someones Tesla avoiding a line of ducks and moving to the right hand lane on autopilot. There is nothing in the manual to say the car will attempt to avoid animals. Rabbits have jumped in front of my car at speed and it feels like only me cares about them. Do the cars on their current firmware now react to this very situation discussed in any way different than before this accident?
Fernand
Active Member
Well, I can say that my car's AI has avoided a number of situations, so it's making it safer for me to drive. As Musk has always said, the AI can drive safer than people, but all you can do is improve safety by some factor, that's very real, maybe an order of magnitude, but you can't ever get accidents to zero, it's not possible.
And it's unreasonable to think of FSD as some deliverable item, like an SKU. It's a process. Gradual.
Given the hole in the trajectory, under the arch that the truck created, it was evidently possible for the car to think it could get through. And it did. I'm sure the system has learned about this by now, how that wasn't good enough.
And it's unreasonable to think of FSD as some deliverable item, like an SKU. It's a process. Gradual.
Given the hole in the trajectory, under the arch that the truck created, it was evidently possible for the car to think it could get through. And it did. I'm sure the system has learned about this by now, how that wasn't good enough.
Last edited:
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
I guess what I mean to say, as I said earlier, is that he misjudged it...just as he said in his statement...saw the lights, for some reason computed that he had time...he thought the car was further away than it actually was. And I suspect he started focusing on northbound traffic as he hurried his way across the road. Yes he “saw” the Tesla, but he did not really comprehend it as a hazard.
Yes, the fault of this accident of course is the truck driver’s. But I disagree that the Tesla could not have avoided this. The truck only moved across the intersection at 11mph. This means that the Tesla driver had about 4 seconds minimum (probably more if driving defensively and predicting vehicle behavior and slowing in response to unexpected side traffic behavior) to comprehend that the truck was going to enter the road and react. So 400 feet minimum. Plenty of space to stop, especially in dry conditions with PS4S tires. Not a pleasant stop, and frightening, but the collision was avoidable.
Trucks don’t move that fast. Even at the photo from the front camera taken 1.5 seconds before the crash that clearly shows the full truck with trailer lights across the lane already, the Tesla driver could have slammed on his brakes and come to a stop or near stop and not died. And the truck would have been visible several seconds before that photo as it started moving 4.5 seconds before the crash. The Tesla driver could have avoided the accident if they had been looking at the road at the time.
68mph is 99.7 feet per second, so he was 149.5 feet away at the point the photo was taken (which was several seconds after the truck moved into the lane). The Model 3 has a braking distance of 133 feet at 60mph, and the road was dry. Don’t know the state of his tires, but he still could have most likely avoided the fatality.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
He had PS4S with 2000 miles on them. They can stop from 69mph in 140 feet (105 feet from 60mph).
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
Sure if the driver or car had braked and the trailer had the underride protection skirts the driver would have survived. But in an impact with 3 times as much kinetic energy (actually nearly 4 times if you take into account the fact that the Tesla is heavier) I think the structure of the truck would have deformed too much to stop underride. I also think you're way overestimating how much better a Model 3 is than a ten year old car (that also has a five star frontal crash rating) in a simple head on collision.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
I have no words. This is like expert level -Ken M 2.0?
Video shows the truck didn’t stop at the stop sign so he had a running movement to pick up some speed. If you were the Tesla and knew your car had your headlights on to be seen, you’d have to be crazy to think the truck driver would try to shoot across the roadway in front of you. Sure, get driving defensively but some people will always be stupid and drive that way, and not talking about the Tesla driver here. Trucker didn’t stop at stop sign, pulled out into oncoming traffic that had the right of way. Read that he also tried to lay some blame on the area not having a traffic light there. I hope he gets some prison time and looses his license. This wasn’t just an accident but very negligent and he was intentionally trying to beat traffic on his part.
Wonder if he got to see what his negligence and trailer did to the driver. Might have been a lifetime lesson there for him.
Last edited:
Thinking about the trucker’s comment that he thought he saw one of the oncoming cars flickering or flashing their headlights at him. He said he took that to mean they would stop for him from what I gathered. To me having driven cars for a number of decades, flashing your lights is an alert and warning to those ahead so they don’t hit you.
To expect anyone on a highway with right of way to stop for you makes no sense, and any driver who stops like that on a highway or even roadway when not required to do so could be guilty of causing an accident should someone hit them or those around them.
To expect anyone on a highway with right of way to stop for you makes no sense, and any driver who stops like that on a highway or even roadway when not required to do so could be guilty of causing an accident should someone hit them or those around them.
- Status
Similar threads
