Another tragic fatality with a semi in Florida. This time a Model 3

[Knightshade]

If it is not intended to be used on this road, Tesla should lock out AP.

Should they also lock out putting the car in drive if your seatbelt isn't on?

How about locking out driving any speed above the speed limit?

Should the car refuse to drive if the rear camera sees a trailer hooked to it in the US?


All of those are against intent- but as with AP, the car ultimately holds the driver responsible for proper use.

 

[qdeathstar]

Straw man...

 

[KG2V]

Image from camera 1.5 seconds before impact:
View attachment 510268
A good reminder that everyone should keep their eyes on the road.

What I find interesting in that picture is that the conspicuity markings (the red/white reflective markings) are barely visible, and are greenish.

BTW, when I had my pickup, even though I wasn't required, I had retroreflective markings - Inside door edges, and on the back of the cap. It had black trim, and there is retro tape that lights up white, even though in daytime it is black

I'm VERY tempted to put it on the back black trim of the model 3 too.

 

[Az_Rael]

What I find interesting in that picture is that the conspicuity markings (the red/white reflective markings) are barely visible, and are greenish.

The AP cameras have some filters on them, which is why all the dash cam videos out of them look weird. Not sure if that would have affected the camera view of the reflectors vs what the truck would have looked like in real life.

 

[Knightshade]

Straw man...

yes, I think that's a fair description of your argument, and my post showed why... thanks for admitting it

 

[qdeathstar]

yes, I think that's a fair description of your argument, and my post showed why... thanks for admitting it

if you only use autopilot on roads where it is intended why do you object to it being disabled?

 

[Knightshade]

if you only use autopilot on roads where it is intended why do you object to it being disabled?

Yup...strawman indeed

If you obey the law why do you object to the car locking out above-the-speed limit driving? If you drive safely why do you object to locking out driving entirely if your seat belt isn't on?

 

[KG2V]

The AP cameras have some filters on them, which is why all the dash cam videos out of them look weird. Not sure if that would have affected the camera view of the reflectors vs what the truck would have looked like in real life.

Yep, it does have the filters, but that photo was with the filters. Like I said, they looked a bit green, and not very visible, which is somewhat interesting

 

[qdeathstar]

Yup...strawman indeed

If you obey the law why do you object to the car locking out above-the-speed limit driving? If you drive safely why do you object to locking out driving entirely if your seat belt isn't on?

Oh, honey, people go above the speed limit all the time and drive without their seat belt almost just as much. I’m not asking about them though. I’m asking why the guy who is complaining about cars doing 45 in a 25 is also whining about proposed speed tables.


Finally, the risks of speeding and not wearing your seatbelt are well understood by most. The risks of using autopilot are much harder to appreciate.

 

[Knightshade]

Oh, honey, people go above the speed limit all the time and drive without their seat belt almost just as much.

Yes- both of which the rules say not to do. Just like the rules say not to use autopilot on roads like this one.

Finally, the risks of speeding and not wearing your seatbelt are well understood by most. The risks of using autopilot are much harder to appreciate.

Funny you bring that up.

Not wearing a seatbelt kills many orders of magnitude more people than using AP in the wrong place.

So does speeding compared to using AP the wrong place.

Yet the least deadly of the three- by far is the only one you seem to want Tesla to specifically lock out in software- and leave the much more deadly ones open to driver choices.


Weird.

 

[Msjulie]

Exactly. If I were to see this in front of me while driving I would assume that it's a hallucination because there is no way another driver would do something as crazy as pulling out in the roadway in front of me. It's simply inconceivable!

Well I guess I've experienced the inconceivable, too many times I must add.

The whole thing stinks and aside from speculations and math to determine if the Tesla driver could have stopped I have to ask this:

Were he paying attention, would he have noticed the truck rolling the stop sign and been able to take any action sooner?
Were he paying attention, would he have stood on the horn?
Were he paying attention, would he have tried to stop before driving under the truck?
Were he paying attention, would he have tried to steer to a decrease/avoid the impact?

I'd have to guess yes to one or all of the above; it could have saved him it seems.

In racing the first thing they tell you to do to get better/faster is fix the nut behind the wheel.

I'd be furious at the truck driver too if that was a family member of mine but it doesn't change the reality that you have to pay attention behind the wheel.

I do feel badly for all involved not that it helps anything.

 

[Fernand]

It's funny how there's always a "lock 'em down" contingent. If they feel so strongly, why don't they take responsibility for fully obeying all the rules and recommendations, rather than ask for more restrictions? Or are they having trouble obeying rules unless they are coerced?

The use of autopilot, as distinct from NOA, on parts of non-protected roads makes perfect sense, but much like cruise control under such conditions it demands extra vigilance. In that sense it is not advisable for average drivers, though older cars don't disable cruise control under bad conditions. The driver of the Tesla was speeding in poor light, on a road with crossings, and not paying attention. End of story, AP or no AP. The truck driver made his own mistakes. An accident occurred.

I don't see the point of assigning blame. We're conned into thinking blame by the insurance companies that try to avoid payments, and the armies of lawyers that collect a percentage no matter what, as long as they can create contention. Nobody was out to cause harm.
.

 

[camalaio]

What I find interesting in that picture is that the conspicuity markings (the red/white reflective markings) are barely visible, and are greenish..

A common misconception is that the images/videos we see are what the AP system is acting on. This is allegedly not correct. What we see are very compressed images compared to the actual information available.

Most of the greenish tint and blocky/blurry nature of those markings comes down to compression artifacts.

It's funny how there's always a "lock 'em down" contingent. If they feel so strongly, why don't they take responsibility for fully obeying all the rules and recommendations, rather than ask for more restrictions? Or are they having trouble obeying rules unless they are coerced?

The use of autopilot, as distinct from NOA, on parts of non-protected roads makes perfect sense, but much like cruise control under such conditions it demands extra vigilance. In that sense it is not advisable for average drivers, though older cars don't disable cruise control under bad conditions. The driver of the Tesla was speeding in poor light, on a road with crossings, and not paying attention. End of story, AP or no AP. The truck driver made his own mistakes. An accident occurred.

I don't see the point of assigning blame. We're conned into thinking blame by the insurance companies that try to avoid payments, and the armies of lawyers that collect a percentage no matter what, as long as they can create contention. Nobody was out to cause harm.
.

It's a thing of human nature to try to understand why something happened, which ultimately turns into trying to find where to put blame in many cases. Add in the echo chamber of any related group of people (this forum for example) and that blame will shift one way or another. Many here come to both point flaws in Tesla's systems as well as try to prove that Tesla's systems must've been faultless. The very existence of this thread is due to the polarizing nature of how much Tesla is to "blame", since this is a Tesla forum.

Anyhow I agree. Externally assigning blame for this sort of thing where no one has the full details (and we have even less) sort of sucks.

 

[qdeathstar]

Funny you bring that up.

Not wearing a seatbelt kills many orders of magnitude more people than using AP in the wrong place.

So does speeding compared to using AP the wrong place.

Which is completely irrelevant. Everyone understands driving fast and without a seatbelt puts you at higher risk. Understanding that during certain situations using AP is more difficult.

Yet the least deadly of the three- by far is the only one you seem to want Tesla to specifically lock out in software- and leave the much more deadly ones open to driver choices.

But, you already agreed the driver should but use autopilot, so what good reason is there to not lock it out?


Name One.


Adding speed limiters and searbelt interlocks on every care would add a lot to the cost of most cars. what similar cost (or negative) does locking AP have?

 

[diamond.g]

Which is completely irrelevant. Everyone understands driving fast and without a seatbelt puts you at higher risk. Understanding that during certain situations using AP is more difficult.



But, you already agreed the driver should but use autopilot, so what good reason is there to not lock it out?


Name One.


Adding speed limiters and searbelt interlocks on every care would add a lot to the cost of most cars. what similar cost (or negative) does locking AP have?

The biggest negative would be mistakenly turning it off when it should be on or vice versa. For example parts of H1 in Hawaii goes over parts of Nimitz Hwy, Nimitz isn’t a limited access divided highway but H1 is. How does AP know which you are on at the time?

 

[lolder]

AP works well on almost all roads. It doesn't stop for lights or signs and the radar which is the main sensor for emergency braking only looks for obstacles from the road surface to a few feet high. That's to avoid phantom braking for overhead signs. AP/EAP and hardware 2.xx all have this limitation, FSD and HW 3.xx will not.

 

[qdeathstar]

The biggest negative would be mistakenly turning it off when it should be on or vice versa. For example parts of H1 in Hawaii goes over parts of Nimitz Hwy, Nimitz isn’t a limited access divided highway but H1 is. How does AP know which you are on at the time?

Presumably the same way they de use if navigate on autopilot is allowed or not.

but, look, my main point is if you are going to chastise someone for using autopilot where it is not recommended by Tesla, it follows logically that you would be in favor of Tesla disabling AP on those roads.

 

[whatthe2]

Presumably the same way they de use if navigate on autopilot is allowed or not.

but, look, my main point is if you are going to chastise someone for using autopilot where it is not recommended by Tesla, it follows logically that you would be in favor of Tesla disabling AP on those roads.

People should use the features that are available to them when they feel comfortable using them. Tesla has provided guidance when/where AP should be used. No need for Tesla to lock down the car. I wouldn’t want them locking down AP on a road where I feel just fine using it. Same as I don’t want them to limit the speed to the max on every road. I’m more than comfortable going over sometimes.

 

[Knightshade]

Which is completely irrelevant.

It's totally relevant.

Requiring seat belts would save massively more lives than your idea. Yet you seem to not be in favor of it...for...some...reason....

Everyone understands driving fast and without a seatbelt puts you at higher risk. Understanding that during certain situations using AP is more difficult.

It's really not.

It's spelled out, very clearly in the owners manual in just a couple of sentences where it's intended to be used or not.


If you can't understand 2 or 3 sentences in the manual you probably shouldn't have a drivers license.

I know! Now you want the car to make you hold up a valid drivers license to a camera before it'll go into drive, right?

But, you already agreed the driver should but use autopilot, so what good reason is there to not lock it out?


Name One.

Same reason not to lock out driving if his seatbelt isn't on. Or if he's exceeding the speed limit.

Actually, an even greater one- the car ALWAYS knows if your seatbelt is on. It can't be SURE if you're on an AP appropriate road or not because sometimes the maps are wrong.


So your idea is even worse than originally though compared to the "require seatbelt to drive" idea.


Name ONE reason NOT to do the seatbelt one.

Adding speed limiters and searbelt interlocks on every care would add a lot to the cost of most cars. what similar cost (or negative) does locking AP have?

Dude... are you high?

The car can already do both

For free.

The car knows if your seatbelt is on. It even has lights and a beep if they're not.

The car knows your speed at all times and the computer can limit top speed easily... hell a speed limiter is built into the tesla app


Your arguments are just outright nonsense at this point.... (not that they weren't to start with...)

 

[cucubits]

AP/EAP and hardware 2.xx all have this limitation, FSD and HW 3.xx will not

Is there a source for this statement or you may have misspelled and wanted to say you hope FSD and hw3 will not?