Another tragic fatality with a semi in Florida. This time a Model 3

[cucubits]

Thinking about the trucker’s comment that he thought he saw one of the oncoming cars flickering or flashing their headlights at him. He said he took that to mean they would stop for him from what I gathered. To me having driven cars for a number of decades, flashing your lights is an alert and warning to those ahead so they don’t hit you.

To expect anyone on a highway with right of way to stop for you makes no sense, and any driver who stops like that on a highway or even roadway when not required to do so could be guilty of causing an accident should someone hit them or those around them.

Of course it makes no sense. He said the first thing he could think of to save his ass. He shouldn't be allowed to drive, ever.

The fact that it was a Tesla which was or wasn't on AP should not matter. Sure, there could have been a chance for the Model 3 driver to live if he was paying attention but there's no way to know that, no matter how many calculations of distance, speed, tires, breaking, etc. The only facts are the truck driver didn't stop at a stop sign, ignored oncoming traffic and on Tesla side, a safety feature which should have slowed it down, failed.

 

[Matias]

Video shows the truck didn’t stop at the stop sign...

What video?

 

[Az_Rael]

The only facts are the truck driver didn't stop at a stop sign, ignored oncoming traffic and on Tesla side, a safety feature which should have slowed it down, failed.

Also on the Tesla side: speed. I would be willing to bet the NTSB also ends up noting speed as a factor.

 

[Daniel in SD]

If you were the Tesla and knew your car had your headlights on to be seen, you’d have to be crazy to think the truck driver would try to shoot across the roadway in front of you

Exactly. If I were to see this in front of me while driving I would assume that it's a hallucination because there is no way another driver would do something as crazy as pulling out in the roadway in front of me. It's simply inconceivable!

To expect anyone on a highway with right of way to stop for you makes no sense, and any driver who stops like that on a highway or even roadway when not required to do so could be guilty of causing an accident should someone hit them or those around them.

Going underneath the semi was also a very dangerous maneuver since it resulted in losing control of the car and could have easily resulted in a an accident. I still think the best of the two bad options would have been to stop. The law in Florida (stand your ground?) may be different but in our state you are required to avoid an accident.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Of course it makes no sense. He said the first thing he could think of to save his ass. He shouldn't be allowed to drive, ever.

The fact that it was a Tesla which was or wasn't on AP should not matter. Sure, there could have been a chance for the Model 3 driver to live if he was paying attention but there's no way to know that, no matter how many calculations of distance, speed, tires, breaking, etc. The only facts are the truck driver didn't stop at a stop sign, ignored oncoming traffic and on Tesla side, a safety feature which should have slowed it down, failed.

I think everyone recognizes the driver of the truck is at fault.

This sort of thing happens every day, usually resulting in the death or serious injury of the person who makes this mistake. It’s a mistake, it makes no sense, but it happens all the time for various reasons (fatigue, visibility, sun in eyes, distraction, just failure to see). It went the other way here, it is sad, and nothing will bring back the loved one who died here. Most likely the family will receive a settlement but that is not particularly helpful.

Every driver is under the obligation to avoid accidents, even if they are not at fault.

As far as there being no way to know whether there was a chance the Tesla driver could have stopped and lived - it is completely knowable - the video Tesla has would make it very clear that the driver had ample time to stop (albeit very abruptly).

 

[Daniel in SD]

What video?

In the report they note that surveillance video showed that the truck braked but did not come to a complete stop at the stop sign.

• At -9 seconds, the tractor-trailer combination’s brake lights activated. The tractor-trailer combination slowed.
  
  
• At -6 seconds, the tractor-trailer was at the intersection US 441 and the driveway access road for 14095 US 441. The tractor-trailer combination’s brake lights were no longer lit. The tractor-trailer combination never came to a complete stop at the intersection.
  

 

[SMAlset]

What video?

The NTSB report mentioned I think two sets of video cameras that caught most of the accident and the Tesla continuing past the truck after colliding. One camera was at one part of the property and had visual of the stop sign and intersection the trucker pulled out into and the other camera was positioned at the further end of the property. Think they said it caught the Tesla most of the way (except for a tree trunk that partially blocked the view) until it exited past the camera's view.

 

[Daniel in SD]

He shouldn't be allowed to drive, ever.

No one has ever been forced to brake to avoid hitting you?

 

[camalaio]

I have no words. This is like expert level -Ken M 2.0?

I also have few words, but this is also a fairly common misconception of Tesla's systems. Some folks think it's actively learning minute by minute as we drive and somehow knows what the right and wrong decisions were by itself after the fact. Some people swear the car has "learned" their own driveways and such.

Thinking about the trucker’s comment that he thought he saw one of the oncoming cars flickering or flashing their headlights at him. He said he took that to mean they would stop for him from what I gathered. To me having driven cars for a number of decades, flashing your lights is an alert and warning to those ahead so they don’t hit you.

To expect anyone on a highway with right of way to stop for you makes no sense, and any driver who stops like that on a highway or even roadway when not required to do so could be guilty of causing an accident should someone hit them or those around them.

Pause for a sec and realise this might be a regional thing, or maybe something you simply don't do yourself. I've definitely seen people flash as a sort of "OK I see you, do your thing". It's less common than flashing for other reasons, but it certainly exists.

I'm not giving either driver more excuses, but also keep in mind how tired and overworked truck drivers generally are. It's dang impressive we don't see more semi truck accidents with how they operate. I count any truck driver's mental state as degraded, because it unfortunately probably is.

Perhaps a more reasonable explanation is that the Model 3 hit some bump in the road which caused the beams to point up/down/up/down, which people commonly mistake for flashing. However that'd have to be a sick bump to deflect that high (not impossible).

 

[Fernand]

I also have few words, but this is also a fairly common misconception of Tesla's systems. Some folks think it's actively learning minute by minute as we drive and somehow knows what the right and wrong decisions were by itself after the fact. Some people swear the car has "learned" their own driveways and such.

Goes to show, unless you put up smileys or GIFs of characters out of sitcoms, people don't recognize irony or humor. And even so, the car isn't likely learning no mo', as its AI has probably been deactivated as punishment for abandoning part of a human on the roadway. Oh, drat, there I go again. Sorry.

 

[verygreen]

Questions I have is there a view from the AI,s point of view of the trailer

There is, Tesla has them, but it was not shared with us (yet?)

Its like there is a YouTube video of someones Tesla avoiding a line of ducks and moving to the right hand lane on autopilot

that video shows no such thing. it shows a maneuver but no AP status so it was likely performed by the driver after potentially getting an alert from AP.

AP does not swerve for obstacles in your lane (other than traffic cones that are taken as roadway change) it beeps and at most slows/stops.

 

[SMAlset]

....Pause for a sec and realise this might be a regional thing, or maybe something you simply don't do yourself. I've definitely seen people flash as a sort of "OK I see you, do your thing". It's less common than flashing for other reasons, but it certainly exists.

I'm not giving either driver more excuses, but also keep in mind how tired and overworked truck drivers generally are. It's dang impressive we don't see more semi truck accidents with how they operate. I count any truck driver's mental state as degraded, because it unfortunately probably is.

Perhaps a more reasonable explanation is that the Model 3 hit some bump in the road which caused the beams to point up/down/up/down, which people commonly mistake for flashing. However that'd have to be a sick bump to deflect that high (not impossible).

I've heard of people flashing their lights to warn of smoky uphead with radar or people flashing their lights to warn the opposing car didn't have their headlights on when they should, never it's okay to go ahead in cross traffic on a busy highway. New one on me. And with many uses of that signaling, why would anyone be foolish enough to think driving across a highway intersection which had cross traffic that a person flashing their lights would be indicating That particular signaling message? I'm sorry but that doesn't seem like sound reasoning here. Besides the NTSB report seemed to rule Out that the Tesla flashed its lights anyway...guessing by Tesla logs...so moot point coming from the trucker. There is also the fact that the trucker did allow the other car to pass before pulling out so he couldn't have thought that car flashed to let him go across.

Yes, truckers have a tough job. Still doesn't excuse in any way the negligence for a massive semi trailer to do what he did and why a number of traffic rules were broken. We need everyone to be safe on the highway. As for being tired the NTSB established he had 7 hours of sleep time prior to his starting his job that day so they didn't seem to indicate he was sleep deprived.

 

[SMAlset]

In the report they note that surveillance video showed that the truck braked but did not come to a complete stop at the stop sign.

• At -9 seconds, the tractor-trailer combination’s brake lights activated. The tractor-trailer combination slowed.
  
  
• At -6 seconds, the tractor-trailer was at the intersection US 441 and the driveway access road for 14095 US 441. The tractor-trailer combination’s brake lights were no longer lit. The tractor-trailer combination never came to a complete stop at the intersection.

So there were two vehicles that were traveling southbound at that intersection. The other vehicle traveling southbound with the Tesla was a few seconds in front of it and passed in front of the tractor-trailer who was already partially crossing the road. All I can say is He/She must have counted their blessings that day. Below continues the Security Video Report info where @Daniel in SD left off. Despite the driver saying he saw the cars coming towards him, I'm not so convinced he had looked to his left to see them. I can't imagine pulling out in front of two cars that were that close with a car let alone a tractor-trailer.

• At -4 seconds, a non-accident vehicle traveling southbound crossed in front of the tractor-trailer combination. At this moment, the tractor-trailer combination was in motion and partially crossing US 441.
  
  
• At -1 second, the tractor-trailer combination’s brake lights activated. At the same moment, the headlights of the accident Tesla vehicle were captured on the recording near the left side of the image frame. The Tesla vehicle was traveling toward impact with the tractor-trailer combination’s trailer. The tractor portion of the tractor-trailer combination was obscured from the camera’s view by a tree trunk. Increased illumination of the road signs slightly to the left of where the tractor portion of the tractor-trailer combination was observed.
  
  
• At time zero, the Tesla vehicle impacted the tractor-trailer combination’s trailer portion.
  

 

[Az_Rael]

So there were two vehicles that were traveling southbound at that intersection. The other vehicle traveling southbound with the Tesla was a few seconds in front of it and passed in front of the tractor-trailer who was already partially crossing the road. All I can say is He/She must have counted their blessings that day. Below continues the Security Video Report info where @Daniel in SD left off. Despite the driver saying he saw the cars coming towards him, I'm not so convinced he had looked to his left to see them. I can't imagine pulling out in front of two cars that were that close with a car let alone a tractor-trailer.

• At -4 seconds, a non-accident vehicle traveling southbound crossed in front of the tractor-trailer combination. At this moment, the tractor-trailer combination was in motion and partially crossing US 441.
  
  
• At -1 second, the tractor-trailer combination’s brake lights activated. At the same moment, the headlights of the accident Tesla vehicle were captured on the recording near the left side of the image frame. The Tesla vehicle was traveling toward impact with the tractor-trailer combination’s trailer. The tractor portion of the tractor-trailer combination was obscured from the camera’s view by a tree trunk. Increased illumination of the road signs slightly to the left of where the tractor portion of the tractor-trailer combination was observed.
  
  
• At time zero, the Tesla vehicle impacted the tractor-trailer combination’s trailer portion.

Sounds like he was trying to split the gap. Kind of like when you have to merge into heavy traffic, so you start moving just before a car passes so you have some momentum to fit into a narrow gap before the next car arrives. An aggressive driving maneuver, especially for a semi since he wouldn’t be able to fully clear the lanes while waiting to make his left turn in the median. I think the report said light traffic conditions, so probably no real reason other than impatience to pull a move like that.

 

[Daniel in SD]

So there were two vehicles that were traveling southbound at that intersection. The other vehicle traveling southbound with the Tesla was a few seconds in front of it and passed in front of the tractor-trailer who was already partially crossing the road. All I can say is He/She must have counted their blessings that day. Below continues the Security Video Report info where @Daniel in SD left off. Despite the driver saying he saw the cars coming towards him, I'm not so convinced he had looked to his left to see them. I can't imagine pulling out in front of two cars that were that close with a car let alone a tractor-trailer.

• At -4 seconds, a non-accident vehicle traveling southbound crossed in front of the tractor-trailer combination. At this moment, the tractor-trailer combination was in motion and partially crossing US 441.
  
  
• At -1 second, the tractor-trailer combination’s brake lights activated. At the same moment, the headlights of the accident Tesla vehicle were captured on the recording near the left side of the image frame. The Tesla vehicle was traveling toward impact with the tractor-trailer combination’s trailer. The tractor portion of the tractor-trailer combination was obscured from the camera’s view by a tree trunk. Increased illumination of the road signs slightly to the left of where the tractor portion of the tractor-trailer combination was observed.
  
  
• At time zero, the Tesla vehicle impacted the tractor-trailer combination’s trailer portion.

Not sure if we’re arguing about something here. The trailer entered the roadway half a second before another car passed. That’s doesn’t seem unusual. I guess I’d have to see the video. Clearly the semi didn’t estimate the distance to the Tesla correctly. I’ve certainly had people do that to me. The idea that you can drive down a highway with cross traffic and never have to brake for cars who don’t give quite enough margin (especially when I’m speeding) does not match my experience.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

The idea that you can drive down a highway with cross traffic and never have to brake for cars who don’t give quite enough margin (especially when I’m speeding) does not match my experience.

That is a good way to look at it. The truck crossed at 11mph, so it would have only required about two additional seconds to avoid a collision (32 feet). Definitely a huge and fatal misjudgment, but this sort of error happens all the time...

 

[qdeathstar]

This road is the type of road that autopilot handles pretty well. Straight, low traffic, and clear markings. I know i would feel pretty comfortable relying on autopilot in this situation. Tesla needs to put eye tracking it it’s cars, I think.

 

[Knightshade]

This road is the type of road that autopilot handles pretty well. Straight, low traffic, and clear markings. I know i would feel pretty comfortable relying on autopilot in this situation. Tesla needs to put eye tracking it it’s cars, I think.

It's the type of road Autopilot is explicitly not intended for use on

Since it's not controlled/limited access, and has cross traffic.

Tesla needs to put something in that requires reading the user manual before turning on AP


Remember, this is the second drive-under death they've investigated regarding AP.

The first, a couple years earlier, concluded the same thing this one will- Driver was using system someplace it's explicitly not intended to be used.

 

[SMAlset]

Not sure if we’re arguing about something here. The trailer entered the roadway half a second before another car passed. That’s doesn’t seem unusual. I guess I’d have to see the video. Clearly the semi didn’t estimate the distance to the Tesla correctly. I’ve certainly had people do that to me. The idea that you can drive down a highway with cross traffic and never have to brake for cars who don’t give quite enough margin (especially when I’m speeding) does not match my experience.

Wasn’t arguing here about anything Daniel. When people quote others, as in this case, it can be to help others follow the train of thought and not have to look back through the thread. I’m in agreement that even if you do have the legal right of way down a highway or roadway, there will always be people who fail to use good judgment and put your life in danger so you need to be watchful.

The video sources will not be released due to the graphic nature of it from what the NTSB who reviewed the video sources said. To better understand how close the two cars with right of way were in relationship to the tractor-trailer as he pulled out onto the highway were, I wish they would have at least published the video showing it up to before impact. Agree we don’t need to see that. When you view the google street view and NTSB photos of that area, it was a flat open roadway that didn’t appear to have any obstructions to the trucker.

We’ll never know what the Tesla driver was doing that he didn’t react to the tractor-trailer but seems like NTSB ruled out time on the phone.

 

[qdeathstar]

It's the type of road Autopilot is explicitly not intended for use on

Since it's not controlled/limited access, and has cross traffic.

Tesla needs to put something in that requires reading the user manual before turning on AP


Remember, this is the second drive-under death they've investigated regarding AP.

The first, a couple years earlier, concluded the same thing this one will- Driver was using system someplace it's explicitly not intended to be used.

If it is not intended to be used on this road, Tesla should lock out AP.