AP makes it so relaxing to drive!!

[Mullermn]

AP is great, I use it loads and consider it to make driving long distances far easier. I also hope that it will see a quantum improvement when the FSD beta highway stack code replaces the legacy AP code, as I assume it will in due course.

That said, RIGHT NOW an ability to manually change lane without AP disengaging would be far better than NoA, which takes its sweet time and requires more effort to supervise than just doing the manual lane change. Not because it can’t manage the lane change but because it has no tools to handle changing circumstances other than to panic and bail out, making you look like a poor driver.

Also, the wheel nags defy all logic. Some days I get hardly any, some days it’s literally every 30 seconds with no discernible difference in behaviour on my part, plus they require too much force in my opinion. Hitting the sweet spot where the system detects the wiggle but doesn’t disengage becomes a task in itself, and if it’s on one of its ‘30 seconds’ days I genuinely think it’s making the system less safe by being a distraction in its own right.

 

[DGSteig]

We’re not talking about automated or assisted lane changes here. I don’t care about that. We just want to change lanes manually without having to disengage and re-engage the system every single time. Tesla is the only system that operates this way.

Don't understand why you have to disengage - turning on the turn signal disengages Autopilot, but leaves TACC enabled. Pass the car (using extra pedal if needed to speed up quicker without disengaging TACC), when back in lane you reengage Autopilot. Not nearly the hassle you make it out to be.

My issue with Autopilot is it is so bad at lanekeeping around interchanges, not recognizing that it should track the inside lane in multi-lane highways so that it doesn't wander toward exit and entry lanes. This has always been a problem, but last week my car suddenly got even worse at this and instead of quickly readjusting lane position when the lane lines resumed, it actually had drifted so far that it alerted and dropped out of autopilot on two separate interchanges that it had always navigated successfully before. I hope the next update resolves this, but I can't understand why it is so hard for Tesla engineers to understand the car should track the inside lane line (e.g. the left lane line if you are in the right lane, or the right lane line if you are in the left lane). The other lane line can be used to determine the lane width, with a REALLY LONG TIME CONSTANT.

 

[DGSteig]

AP is great, I use it loads and consider it to make driving long distances far easier. I also hope that it will see a quantum improvement when the FSD beta highway stack code replaces the legacy AP code, as I assume it will in due course.

That said, RIGHT NOW an ability to manually change lane without AP disengaging would be far better than NoA, which takes its sweet time and requires more effort to supervise than just doing the manual lane change. Not because it can’t manage the lane change but because it has no tools to handle changing circumstances other than to panic and bail out, making you look like a poor driver.

Also, the wheel nags defy all logic. Some days I get hardly any, some days it’s literally every 30 seconds with no discernible difference in behaviour on my part, plus they require too much force in my opinion. Hitting the sweet spot where the system detects the wiggle but doesn’t disengage becomes a task in itself, and if it’s on one of its ‘30 seconds’ days I genuinely think it’s making the system less safe by being a distraction in its own right.

I wonder if the nag sensitivity is something service can address. I have no problem with just light pressure on the wheel, I have only pulled it out of Autopilot once by putting too much pressure on it. I like the idea of actually responding to user input, though that would seem to negate the advantage of not having to steer.

 

[zoomer0056]

disengages Autopilot, but leaves TACC enabled.

Autopilot is a set of features. TACC and Autosteer are just some of the features of Autopilot. If Autopilot is disengaged then so it TACC and all other features. Maybe better wording would be disengage Autosteer leaving TACC enabled.

 

[TesslaBull]

Update and correction. The other day when seeing how many nags I would get during the highway portion of my trip, I did so with hands off the wheel. To dismiss the nag, it required a very intentional amount of force applied to the wheel...not just touching the wheel. I got a lot of pushback from folks who claimed to get very few nags while driving normal i.e. hand(s) resting on the wheel, so I decided to retest.

On my way to work this morning, I kept my right hand gently on the wheel. I *definitely* got far fewer nags....maybe even none during the 15 or so miles of highway I drive. I even intentionally kept a light touch on the wheel without making any conscious effort to apply *some* force in order to keep AP happy.

I'll try again this afternoon and see how things go. If I continue to get none, almost none, or infrequent nags by making sure I keep at least one hand resting gently on the wheel, I will definitely retract my criticism of this part of AP.

Manual lane change still should be addressed IMO.

Will update again this evening.

 

[zoomer0056]

On my way to work this morning, I kept my right hand gently on the wheel. I *definitely* got far fewer nags....maybe even none

Great! Another win for the TMC community.

 

[Konicom04]

in my experience, my hand needs to rest at about 8 o'clock or 4 o'clock for the nags to be nonexistent.
If i place my hand at 6 ( as i used to drive my ICE ) it nags.
I believe, the natural weight of the arm is doing its trick when its placed at 8 or 4 - not so much at 6

 

[JohnB007]

Amount of force needed is definitely much less than it used to be. I tend to switch between left and right hands, sometimes 5-oclock, sometimes 7-oclock, sometimes 3-oclock, etc.

Even when I do get a blue flash, it really needs very light force on the wheel - just grab it gently and give a slight resistance. That's all it needs.

It is quite usable, and I'm sure it will get better.

 

[JB47394]

To dismiss the nag, it required a very intentional amount of force applied to the wheel...not just touching the wheel.

I'm going to say it explicitly in case there's any confusion at all; there is a sensor in the steering wheel that detects rotational force being applied. While on FSDb, there is a bit of play in the steering wheel where there is no resistance to turning. Beyond that, there will be pronounced resistance. That resistance is the point at which that sensor is engaged.

So if the car is going straight and the driver tries to apply a bit of force to turn the wheel, that sensor will trigger. It communicates to FSDb that somebody or something is acting to turn the steering wheel. If the car is turning and the driver gently tries to hold the wheel in place, that sensor will again trigger. In both cases, the car can detect a rotational force.

A light force will trigger the sensor. A greater force will break some actuator or limiter and tell the car that the driver is in control.

When I'm letting FSDb do its thing, I hold the bottom of the wheel between thumb and the side of a finger. When FSDb turns, I keep pressure on the wheel so that the sensor detects some resistance to the wheel rotating. When going straight, I play the game of nudging the wheel against that sensor either left or right.

For those who keep their hands on the wheel, it's the same thing; lightly resist turns and gently wiggle the steering wheel when going straight.

 

[E90alex]

Don't understand why you have to disengage - turning on the turn signal disengages Autopilot, but leaves TACC enabled. Pass the car (using extra pedal if needed to speed up quicker without disengaging TACC), when back in lane you reengage Autopilot. Not nearly the hassle you make it out to be.

My issue with Autopilot is it is so bad at lanekeeping around interchanges, not recognizing that it should track the inside lane in multi-lane highways so that it doesn't wander toward exit and entry lanes. This has always been a problem, but last week my car suddenly got even worse at this and instead of quickly readjusting lane position when the lane lines resumed, it actually had drifted so far that it alerted and dropped out of autopilot on two separate interchanges that it had always navigated successfully before. I hope the next update resolves this, but I can't understand why it is so hard for Tesla engineers to understand the car should track the inside lane line (e.g. the left lane line if you are in the right lane, or the right lane line if you are in the left lane). The other lane line can be used to determine the lane width, with a REALLY LONG TIME CONSTANT.

Yes I mean disengaging and re-engaging auto steer. It’s an extra step that is not required in any other vehicle with lane keep/lane centering. It’s definitely annoying if you’re making multiple lane changes, not just the constant having to mess with both stalks but the constant bing bing sounds for each disengage and re-engage.

And autosteer only disengages on full press of the turn signal. Half press does not disengage autosteer and you have to fight the wheel to disengage. This does not make sense since especially after the auto cancel turn signal update there is no functional difference in how they work anymore between half press and full press, so why only cancel autosteer on half press?

Half press or full press of the turn signal should trigger auto steer to *pause* (not fully disengage) without making any bing bing warning sounds. Because why else are you using your signal if not to change lanes or turn? Then it should allow your manual lane change and when the car sees the lane change is complete and auto-cancels the turn signal, it should then auto- resume autosteer without any further driver input or bing bong sound effects.

 

[vmichael9]

While it is annoying when changing lanes. I find just turning on the turn signal, will automatically disengage auto steer. I then make my lane change and it then continues in cruise control until I double tap the stalk down for auto steer again. I drive 60 miles of highway each way. And for the most part as much as I hate to "hog" the left lane I'm cruising at 85 and refuse to make a lane change to pass someone unless they're doing under 75. But If I were in the middle or right lane I know I'd have to make a lot more lane changes.

As far as the nagging goes, I feel like keeping your hand there definitely stops the nagging as much. I think I count it nagging me every 30 seconds with my hands of the wheel

 

[zoomer0056]

Autopilot is driver assist, not autonomous hands free driving. It becomes nagging when the alerts don't have the intended affect from saying "put your hands on the wheel."

 

[TesslaBull]

Definitely confirmed; I get very few nags as long as I keep a hand on the wheel. This morning, I think I only got one nag, And to be clear, I'm being very intentional to *not* apply any intentional force to try and prevent nags, just lightly keeping one hand on the wheel. So this is a pretty good result I think.

Lane keep works very good and keeps the car centered pretty well. Only issue I notice on my route is that it drifts into the on ramp of merging traffic after the line between the slow lane and merge ramp disappears. Not *completely*, but probably drifts over smoothly about a foot, rather than keeping alignment with the dotted line on the left as it should.

 

[JB47394]

Not *completely*, but probably drifts over smoothly about a foot, rather than keeping alignment with the dotted line on the left as it should.

Yeah, I was surprised when I heard that Tesla focuses on "lane centering". It seems vastly inferior to focusing on lane markers. Going left at a stop sign with a wide lane? Be on the left side of the lane. Have a merge lane on the right? Focus on the lane marker on the left; it's a through traffic indicator. In essence, cars stop trying to float between lane markers and instead have outriggers that ride on a rail on one side or the other.

 

[Mullermn]

In reply to the many people above saying that just holding the wheel is enough to prevent nags - I always have at least one hand on the wheel (and mostly only one hand), and I can categorically say that this is not enough to prevent nags in my Y. I have no trouble believing that there are those who find this does work, there are lots of quirks in Teslas where some people seem to have better ‘luck’ than others for some reason (eg, I have had a ‘phantom braking’ incident about twice in 6000 miles while some seem to think they get it all the time).

It is also verifiable fact that the frequency of nags has changed a lot for the worse in the time I’ve had the car. I couldn’t say if it’s different per drive or if it’s per software update as I haven’t identified a clear pattern. It would be interesting to know what the algorithm Tesla use is, but I imagine they are reluctant to discuss the specifics for fear of encouraging defeat devices.

 

[JB47394]

In reply to the many people above saying that just holding the wheel is enough to prevent nags

@greentheonly on Twitter posted a video from April 2021 showing the output from the cabin camera. It listed probabilities for the following conditions:

Phone Use
Driver Eyes Down
Sunglasses Eyes Likely Down
Driver Looking Right
Driver Head Down
Driver Eyes Closed
Sunglasses Eyes Likely Up
Driver Eyes Nominal
Driver Looking Left
View of Head Truncated
Driver Eyes Up
Camera Dark
Camera Blinded

It's all about the driver's eyes. Note that the "Phone Use" number spikes when the driver is looking down at the phone. It's much lower when the phone is held to either ear.

Tesla's own documentation about the cabin camera states that it "can determine driver inattentiveness and provide you with audible alerts, to remind you to keep your eyes on the road when Autopilot is engaged."

Tesla monitors hands on the steering wheel with a torque sensor. If that sensor is not engaged often enough, the driver will see a nag.

 

[Mullermn]

@greentheonly on Twitter posted a video from April 2021 showing the output from the cabin camera. It listed probabilities for the following conditions:

Phone Use
Driver Eyes Down
Sunglasses Eyes Likely Down
Driver Looking Right
Driver Head Down
Driver Eyes Closed
Sunglasses Eyes Likely Up
Driver Eyes Nominal
Driver Looking Left
View of Head Truncated
Driver Eyes Up
Camera Dark
Camera Blinded

It's all about the driver's eyes. Note that the "Phone Use" number spikes when the driver is looking down at the phone. It's much lower when the phone is held to either ear.

Here in the UK phone use is a major no no these days, so it will never have seen me touch my phone while driving.

I did think the nags were particularly bad when I was wearing sunglasses, but if Tesla are often accused of over-fitting their systems to California then I assumed they’d have addressed that already.

Tesla's own documentation about the cabin camera states that it "can determine driver inattentiveness and provide you with audible alerts, to remind you to keep your eyes on the road when Autopilot is engaged."

Tesla monitors hands on the steering wheel with a torque sensor. If that sensor is not engaged often enough, the driver will see a nag.

As I said, I always have a hand on the wheel so I am applying torque - obviously the question is about how much. I had a thought on this earlier on - you people that say a hand on the wheel is sufficient; are you hanging the weight of your arm from your hand? I often drive with one hand on the wheel but I rest my elbow on the door which would take a lot of the weight off the wheel. Could that be the difference?

 

[Supcom]

As I said, I always have a hand on the wheel so I am applying torque - obviously the question is about how much. I had a thought on this earlier on - you people that say a hand on the wheel is sufficient; are you hanging the weight of your arm from your hand? I often drive with one hand on the wheel but I rest my elbow on the door which would take a lot of the weight off the wheel. Could that be the difference?

Much of this depends on how you position your seat and steering wheel. However, for me, I can grip the wheel at either four or eight o'clock with my arm resting on my thigh. This puts enough downward force to satisfy the torque sensor. Alternatively, I can hook a finger or two of my left hand just to the right of the bottom spoke of the wheel so the weight of my forearm pulls the wheel slightly clockwise (or vice versa with the other hand). Both of these allow one hand on the wheel in a relaxed state, so are good for long drives. I switch these holds around as I drive and get very few nags.

 

[JB47394]

As I said, I always have a hand on the wheel so I am applying torque - obviously the question is about how much. I had a thought on this earlier on - you people that say a hand on the wheel is sufficient; are you hanging the weight of your arm from your hand? I often drive with one hand on the wheel but I rest my elbow on the door which would take a lot of the weight off the wheel. Could that be the difference?

When you get a nag, you turn the wheel a bit to cancel it, right? So that's the amount of force that needs to be applied. I can't imagine actually resting weight on the steering wheel because that sucker could start turning fast. Tesla has eliminated most of the crazy jerking of the steering wheel, but it still sometimes happens.

Like most people, I leave the weight of my arm on my leg. Then I grip the wheel between thumb and the side of my index finger at roughly around 5 or 7 o'clock. Or, per @Supcom, around 4 or 8. From there, I nudge the wheel back and forth at intervals so that I'm tripping the torque sensor. On my Model 3 there is a small amount of play in the steering wheel before I bump into the resistance of the sensor. Sometimes I get lazy in my nudging and don't push hard enough and end up with a nag.

 

[DGSteig]

Autopilot is a set of features. TACC and Autosteer are just some of the features of Autopilot. If Autopilot is disengaged then so it TACC and all other features. Maybe better wording would be disengage Autosteer leaving TACC enabled.
View attachment 933246

Agree, will keep that in mind