NigelM
Recovering Member
Don't forget that Elon said they were targeting August 15th. Could be sooner, could be later.
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Don't forget that Elon said they were targeting August 15th. Could be sooner, could be later.
NigelM
Recovering Member
Hehe, perhaps unintended but that's pretty funny in a thread complaining about lateness. ;-)
And there are plenty of engines that rumble with very plush interiors for them to choose from. Tesla doesn't have to compete for every luxury car purchase. A target of 500,000 cars/year is only 3% market share in the U.S.
Todd Burch
14-Year Member
I first made my Model S reservation in January of 2010, so I've been following it awhile now. Tesla has always marketed the Model S as a premium car, not a luxury car.
The fact that it can capture a portion of the Porsche 911 market, the Merc S550 market, and even the Hyundai Accent market (people who wouldn't have otherwise spent so much on a car) is a testament to the S, period.
Tesla has catching up to do on some features, that's true. They're also only a decade old vs. a century. They have to develop their own stuff.
But Merc and BMW also don't have a completely digital car. They don't have the massive touchscreen with Google Maps. They don't have over-the-air software updates. That kind of stuff also counts as tech features, and that's an aspect where Merc, Audi, BMW, and the rest are clearly behind.
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I don't quite agree with this. They definitely should compete on every turf they can find.
But we all need to recognize that Tesla almost ran out of money making the Model S. It's already an expensive car. Had they gone for full-on plush, Tesla probably wouldn't be around today, period. The car would've taken more time to develop, and would have cost a lot more (so likely not as many buyers).
Even now, they're in a much better situation but they have more pressing matters--more fundamental to the health of the company--than trying to improve the interior. Would they get more buyers? Sure. But remember, at this stage they can't make enough Model S's anyway.
There's a good reason why Tesla is the only new American automaker to make it past infancy since Chrysler. Tesla was smart enough to devote their energy to the stuff that would get the cars sold. I'm sure the "luxury" will come--they just need to be careful about their resources.
(As for the snake, that likely was just a few people working on a project, and R&D is a good thing, IMHO. That was not a large resource hog for Tesla).
As for autopilot, what else is there to say? I guess it'll get here when it gets here...
The fact that it can capture a portion of the Porsche 911 market, the Merc S550 market, and even the Hyundai Accent market (people who wouldn't have otherwise spent so much on a car) is a testament to the S, period.
Tesla has catching up to do on some features, that's true. They're also only a decade old vs. a century. They have to develop their own stuff.
But Merc and BMW also don't have a completely digital car. They don't have the massive touchscreen with Google Maps. They don't have over-the-air software updates. That kind of stuff also counts as tech features, and that's an aspect where Merc, Audi, BMW, and the rest are clearly behind.
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I don't quite agree with this. They definitely should compete on every turf they can find.
But we all need to recognize that Tesla almost ran out of money making the Model S. It's already an expensive car. Had they gone for full-on plush, Tesla probably wouldn't be around today, period. The car would've taken more time to develop, and would have cost a lot more (so likely not as many buyers).
Even now, they're in a much better situation but they have more pressing matters--more fundamental to the health of the company--than trying to improve the interior. Would they get more buyers? Sure. But remember, at this stage they can't make enough Model S's anyway.
There's a good reason why Tesla is the only new American automaker to make it past infancy since Chrysler. Tesla was smart enough to devote their energy to the stuff that would get the cars sold. I'm sure the "luxury" will come--they just need to be careful about their resources.
(As for the snake, that likely was just a few people working on a project, and R&D is a good thing, IMHO. That was not a large resource hog for Tesla).
As for autopilot, what else is there to say? I guess it'll get here when it gets here...
This luxury business is short-sighted. Elon and Tesla have made it clear that the luxury part of the equation is a stepping stone to mass market ~$30-$40k EVs. Tesla needs 2-3 years more good Model S and Model X sales to get there. Are Mercedes and BMW going to field an competitive EV in that timeframe? I doubt it, for the simple reason that they don't need to. Beyond that timeframe, everything changes.
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Sorry for the thread hijack, but a $30-40k car is not a "mass market" car by any definition. Especially a small car. It's a luxury car, along the lines of a BMW 3-series or Audi A4. I don't hear anyone calling the BMW 3-series "mass market"...
dhanson865
Well-Known Member
Take a look at
http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/2014-sales-chart-Dec-vfinal6-750x530.png
I consider any car above the Prius PHV (plug in prius) to be mass market. As in it needs to sell more than 1000 a month average for the year (12,000+ per year).
For 2014 that is Tesla Model S, Chevy Volt, Nissan Leaf.
For 2015 the list is the same unless one of the also rans steps up.
$30,000 or not if they sell tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of them that is mass market in the EV world.
Not even especially high volume. Less than 1/3 the number of cars BMW sells annually, and BMW is not considered to be a "high volume" car maker.
Ford's Fusion and Taurus both price into the 30-40's. In fact my 2013 Ford Fusion Energi Titanium with navigation, sunroof, and adaptive cruise control was over $40k in 2013. Granted Fusions are in $22k to mid $30k without PHEV. I'm sure we can google the 'average price:
Average new car price zips 2.6% to $33,560
Average new car price zips 2.6% to $33,560
So... it seems it is.Taurus starts at $27k. $27k to $35k is a big difference (25%), and don't think for a moment that a "loaded" model 3 will be $35k. I suspect the only way they'll get to $35k with the model 3 will be including "gas savings" and tax incentives-- the same way they claim a Model S is $52.5k.
That average number includes trucks, and in the US, trucks can easily be priced higher than cars.
An entry level BMW 3-series is slightly less than $35k, and BMW sells more than 500,000 of that model alone. And, again, that's not a "mass market" car.
That average number includes trucks, and in the US, trucks can easily be priced higher than cars.
An entry level BMW 3-series is slightly less than $35k, and BMW sells more than 500,000 of that model alone. And, again, that's not a "mass market" car.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
1) Nissan had been advertising the Nissan Leaf as the first mass market EV since launch, when base price was $33-34k, and the media also referred to it as such even back then (with as tested price at $35k).
http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NISSAN/LEAF/
"The world’s first mass-market mainstream electric car isn’t for everyone, but a whole lot of people who might have never considered an EV ought to."
http://www.wired.com/2010/12/road-test-seeing-green-in-new-way-with-nissan-leaf/
Keep in mind also that the $33,720 base Nissan SV in 2010 dollars, is $36,902 in 2015 dollars.
2) Like hybrids, EVs command an upfront premium, thus looking only at MSRP does not tell you the whole story. For example a Focus EV, e-Golf, Soul EV starts at $30k and up, but the ICE versions start under $20k.
3) Tesla is aiming somewhere around 400k annual volume for the Model 3, roughly half of which is in the US (judging by Model S sales). I had a hard time finding global volume numbers for other cars, but finding cars that sell at 200k per year in the US isn't too hard, and it's easily in the top 20 (just barely under top 10):
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2015/01/usa-all-cars-sales-figures-2014-december-year-end.html
The "mass market" terminology is used in this context.
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getting back to the actual purpose of this thread...after being on California roads most of the day today, I for one can hardly wait to see some of the features added.
Seriously, some people just need a bus pass. Note to those that insist on riding in the fast lane while others pass you on the right - **please** just move over...you aren't doing anything except creating dangerous conditions and breaking the law (in most states). Perhaps autopilot can autocorrect some of this....sigh.
Seriously, some people just need a bus pass. Note to those that insist on riding in the fast lane while others pass you on the right - **please** just move over...you aren't doing anything except creating dangerous conditions and breaking the law (in most states). Perhaps autopilot can autocorrect some of this....sigh.
I think that would be best, but I wonder if their update infrastructure is set up to support something like this?
It might be harder to actually do than it sounds.
It might be harder to actually do than it sounds.
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