Thank youDid some digging and a 60 pack should have 61 KwH nominal, and 58.5 KwH usable.
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Thank youDid some digging and a 60 pack should have 61 KwH nominal, and 58.5 KwH usable.
But if under warranty they fix it right for free, not put in an old timing chain or used bolts back in the car.With my BMW 540, timing chain guides failed costing me $5k repair. Turns out is a common issue that affects many.
With my E63 AMG Mercedes, cylinder head bolts failed due to corrosion, causing thousands in repair costs. Also a known issue that affects many.
I could go on and on about how every carmaker has issues...
It's a gray S60 with tan seats and headliner, but thanks for the info.Mind pming me your vin #? Red S60 by any chance?
not the same VINI don't have it anymore, but I sold it to a friend who ended up totaling it about 6 months later (MSM S60). The battery was destroyed, he ran over something metal in the road and it cut into the battery pack.
@thesnooch : Nvm, I found the bill of sale - 5YJSA1S19EFP62141
That is very interesting. Then what are we supposed to base our purchases on? If a 90kWh battery only has a capacity of 73kWh, then what battery do we buy?In early 2016, when I bought my Model S, 90D, these cars in the showrooms all displayed a full charge range of about 280 miles. I bought an "inventory" car (dealer demo) with 17,000 miles on it. It was manufactured in Feb. of 2016. It also showed a full charge range of 280 miles. Immediately I noticed that my (extrapolated) full charge range, in real life, was around 200 miles. If I tried really hard, in ideal conditions, I could get 220 miles. I did numerous calculations of useable battery capacity (using the cars display of kwh used). All calculations resulted in a battery capacity of 72 to 73 kwh. For a "90 kwh" battery. All the while, the cars display of full charge Rated Range remained (remains) around 275 miles.
@54,000just curious—what was your mileage at the time of failure?
Thank you for that information. That is very helpful.Your math appears correct. The only thing to add is that these calculations will be more reliable when you do longer trips, using a larger portion of the battery capacity.
You are correct that a nominal 60 kwh battery will not have 60 kwh of useable energy. For battery longevity and preservation, the battery is never charged to its maximum voltage. And is never allowed to fully discharge. Displayed rated range should be based on the useable capacity. Not the nominal capacity. While the exact number is debatable, the useable battery capacity should be somewhere around 90% of the nominal capacity.
You just reminded me that I have the STATS app. I've had it since I bought the car!Really patting myself on the back now for years of $5 / month to Teslafi
I'm seeing that with everyone, the numbers aren't adding up. I'm trying to get the word out and answers just like everyone else and this is a lot of data to mull through.Tesla has said clearly that the warranty does not include HV pack degradation. But I agree if I saw more than 30%, I would be demanding a replacement. The only thing we can hope for, is that such a severe degradation causes a battery or charge fault.
If it does not, I would be included to drive it around hard until it does.
I looked closely at my miles and KwH required to use half the battery, and did not see the degradation that the Canbus data shows. It seems that RR is based on full pack, and the algorithm adjusts to usable pack as you get below 20%. Since I have never been that low, I really don't know what is going on.
I need to do more research, but I think Tesla is pulling a fast one on our older cars. Someone else might be getting the Cybertruck I reserved...
Interesting situation. You probably got a deficient battery. The rep gave you terrible answers. However, you do need to drive the car to determine the actual range. Then, if that is less than it should be, you can pin down Tesla with the fact that your actual achieved range is less than it should be, at the same wh/mile. And this deficiency is inconsistent with the terms of the warranty. If you complain about less kwh capacity or less displayed range, they will squirm out of that by saying that those are just calculated values. Which they are. One thing that you should know is that the 60kwh battery is actually a 75 kwh battery that is software limited to 60 kwh.So I spoke to the Tesla Service Center Manager at the Orland/Eatonville Service Center. When I questioned him about the current battery warranty he said that he didn't know about it. When I asked what number the current warranty was based, he said that Tesla didn't have a number. I recorded the conversation. The entire conversation is unbelievable and you can skip right to it at 4:20 in the video. Feel free to share.
My 90 kwh battery only has 72 kwh of usable capacity. When new the "90 kwh" batteries had a usable capacity in the low 80's. And that would be fine. My car was a dealer demo for the first 6 months of its life, early 2016. Showroom cars (at that time) were always charged up to 100% to show off the maximum displayed range. I believe that this resulted in a degraded battery by the time I got it. Tesla sold me the car with a brand new warranty. So I was pretty disappointed that the car had lost 30% of its range with only 7,500 miles on it. I was able to trace the lost range to a 15% loss of battery capacity and another 15% lost by never being able to get close to the rated wh/mile. I took one 200 mile trip with the specific purpose of maximizing range. Just to see. The temperature was 65-70. My speed was modest. I avoided any hard accelerations. I minimized braking. "Rated Range" on full charge was 280 miles. I achieved a range of 220 miles (extrapolating the last few percent of charge down to 0). Under normal driving my 280 mile car got me 200 miles. (I think that is down to about 190 miles now, a few years later)That is very interesting. Then what are we supposed to base our purchases on? If a 90kWh battery only has a capacity of 73kWh, then what battery do we buy?
Interesting situation. You probably got a deficient battery. The rep gave you terrible answers. However, you do need to drive the car to determine the actual range. Then, if that is less than it should be, you can pin down Tesla with the fact that your actual achieved range is less than it should be, at the same wh/mile. And this deficiency is inconsistent with the terms of the warranty. If you complain about less kwh capacity or less displayed range, they will squirm out of that by saying that those are just calculated values. Which they are. One thing that you should know is that the 60kwh battery is actually a 75 kwh battery that is software limited to 60 kwh.
To make a good argument to Tesla that the battery is inadequate, you need a more substantive complaint than simply the display of range is low. That display of range could be way off (It sure is on my car).I would not agree that one has to drive the car.
Tesla should furnish a car that meets the warranty requirements.
If Tesla says the battery meets requirements, then they should furnish a report showing the actual capacity (I know they won't, but...)
In any event, it is known what the new, nominal capacity is, and it can be seen from the CAN bus what the current, nominal capacity is. If it is less than 30% of new (For older S60, IIRC) or less than when the battery failed, it does not meet requirements.
To make a good argument to Tesla that the battery is inadequate, you need a more substantive complaint than simply the display of range is low. That display of range could be way off (It sure is on my car).
Agreed, It cant hurt to do the drive.
The real bottom line is achievable range. In a way, it really is all you care about. We have to refer to battery degradation only to counter the argument that we are not achieving the expected range due to driving style (too many wh/mi). Measurement of battery capacity is not effected by wh/mile.
Actually, it can be, although the effect is small. High power requires high currents with increased energy loss due to pack and powertrain resistance. Not sure if the SA is smart enough to know this, but the mother ship is...I think to convince them, you would have to repeat the EPA 5 cycle test.
That is why I suggested, do, a measure of real range. You don't have to drive from 100% to 0%.
But if you don't, you wont see the real degradation due to Tesla cheating and using the nominal full instead of the usable capacity of the pack for calculating rated range. I think if you did a drive that way, until the car shuts down, never exceeding the EPA wh/mi, that would be hard to refute, but also, hard to do.
Just use some large portion of the battery and extrapolate. For example if you drive from 90% down to 20%, that is 70% of the battery. If that much battery got you 150 miles, then your full charge range is 150/0.7. That would be 214 miles of full charge range. Use the longest trip that you can for a more accurate number. And make sure that your wh/mile is close to what you did in the past for a good comparison.
Agreed. but the warranty says capacity. Capacity is shown as a parameter on the CAN bus. Capacity is on the spec sheet of the Panasonic NCR18650B cells, we know how many cells in a pack. I am not saying Tesla won't try to weasel out of this but I sure would like to see how!
Thanks for your comments
That is completely unacceptable, I would go straight to a lawer, get copies of the warranty and quote that clause in your complaint. Tesla continues to make excuses for honoring warranties.So I spoke to the Tesla Service Center Manager at the Orland/Eatonville Service Center. When I questioned him about the current battery warranty he said that he didn't know about it. When I asked what number the current warranty was based, he said that Tesla didn't have a number. I recorded the conversation. The entire conversation is unbelievable and you can skip right to it at 4:20 in the video. Feel free to share.
I will not buy another Tesla and I know quite a few who dumped their Model S cars and are going Audi e-Tron. My client just got one. He is able to achieve over 250 miles of range even though the car is EPA rated at 204 miles. The quality is off the hook compared to Tesla and the interior bits are top notch. He doesn't road trip and couldn't care less about Superchargers.These are the stories that make me second guess the purchase of a Tesla.
Can you find horror stories of any automotive brand replacing your gas tank with a smaller one, or replacing your engine with a lesser performing one? That's what we're discussing here. Keep it apples to apples, please. While we are at it, any examples of other brands removing features via software for which a customer paid? Please share your examples.Can find horror stories with every automotive brand.
Did any of those result in reduction of performance, removal of features that were paid for, or a reduction in the size of the gas tank? If not, these examples are meaningless. We aren't talking about regular service items here, clearly.With my BMW 540, timing chain guides failed costing me $5k repair. Turns out is a common issue that affects many.
With my E63 AMG Mercedes, cylinder head bolts failed due to corrosion, causing thousands in repair costs. Also a known issue that affects many.
I could go on and on about how every carmaker has issues...
If they try to argue this, point them to their own FAQs here: Range TipsBut they can't argue driving style effects "rated" range which is strictly based on the BMS's report of kWh capacity.
According to the #batterygate thread and resulting class action lawsuit, there is evidence of Tesla tampering with the Wh/mi constant. According to the lawsuit, Tesla is reducing this constant over time in order to conceal accelerated capacity degradation. There's a lot of crap that's going to hit the fan in the next year over Tesla's shady practices and it's going to shake the company to its foundation. Just wait for it.In my car, early 2016 S 90D, the full charge rated range is little changed from new. But the battery capacity is significantly degraded (72 kwh). So the displayed Rated Range is concealing battery degradation. The displayed rated range is not strictly based on the battery capacity.
I will not buy another Tesla and I know quite a few who dumped their Model S cars and are going Audi e-Tron. My client just got one. He is able to achieve over 250 miles of range even though the car is EPA rated at 204 miles. The quality is off the hook compared to Tesla and the interior bits are top notch. He doesn't road trip and couldn't care less about Superchargers.
It's nice to see a car manufacturer undersell its numbers for a change. Tesla used to do that back in 2013-2015, before it got greedy and decided to screw its loyal customers.
Can you find horror stories of any automotive brand replacing your gas tank with a smaller one, or replacing your engine with a lesser performing one? That's what we're discussing here. Keep it apples to apples, please. While we are at it, any examples of other brands removing features via software for which a customer paid? Please share your examples.
Did any of those result in reduction of performance, removal of features that were paid for, or a reduction in the size of the gas tank? If not, these examples are meaningless. We aren't talking about regular service items here, clearly.
If they try to argue this, point them to their own FAQs here: Range Tips
To wit:
Why is my displayed estimated range decreasing faster than miles driven?
Displayed range is based on regulating agency certification (EPA) and is not adapted based on driving pattern. Your driving behaviors and environmental conditions can impact your car's efficiency, and therefore its range. To see estimated range based on personalized energy consumption, open the Energy app.
According to the #batterygate thread and resulting class action lawsuit, there is evidence of Tesla tampering with the Wh/mi constant. According to the lawsuit, Tesla is reducing this constant over time in order to conceal accelerated capacity degradation. There's a lot of crap that's going to hit the fan in the next year over Tesla's shady practices and it's going to shake the company to its foundation. Just wait for it.
There's a lot of crap that's going to hit the fan in the next year over Tesla's shady practices and it's going to shake the company to its foundation. Just wait for it.
Not in the OP’s case, no.One thing that you should know is that the 60kwh battery is actually a 75 kwh battery that is software limited to 60 kwh.