Car & Driver: The Mach E is simply better than the Model Y

[Zorg]

Yes, I was banned from macheforum for telling this kind of truth ...

I had this thought too before, but someone told me that Porsche is using MacPherson struts on 911. So, it is not necessarily that bad.

It's also not necessarily that good. Obviously, a good McPherson will handle better than a crappy multilink, but all things being equal a multilink is still the better suspension.

 

[FOOLSLFDRVNG]

Theres some poor guy who has had his mach-e stolen, the thieves have the key fob probably.

Nothing bad there - but they were able to deregister the phone as a key which removes access to the car from the app (unlike tesla) and he has no way of tracking the car and no contact at ford willing to help.

Its likely the car is stripped for parts or has its gps/data disabled now but it would have been good..

Built in Mexico and probably smuggled back in Mexico junk yard being stripped.

 

[Nakk]

Yes, I was banned from macheforum for telling this kind of truth ...

I had this thought too before, but someone told me that Porsche is using MacPherson struts on 911. So, it is not necessarily that bad.

The 911 uses a MacPherson Strut up front, but not in the rear. The Mach-e has front & rear MacPherson Strut suspension. There are two possible reasons to use a MS suspension, save space or save money. Porsche uses the MS up front due to space constraints. Obviously, Porsche goes above and beyond to ensure the front suspension can do the job, and no expense is spared. The Mach-e does not have the same space constraints as the 911, so logically MS suspension is used to save money. Given that, it would make no sense to then spend a fortune to bring the MS up to snuff. No, if you have the room, the best suspension is a multilink. The Mach-e suspension is great for saving money, but it can't compare to the Tesla's suspension. The Y and the 3 have suspension more akin to a BMW, while the Mach-e is more reminiscent of a Ford Taurus. That is simply a fact. Magneride shocks are nice, no doubt, but they can't make up for the Mach-E's low cost, low performance, suspension. Again, that is simply a fact.

Don't feel bad about being banned from the Mach-e forum. While there are a few normal people over there, the average intellect on that forum does not impress me. Over here, there are some truly exceptionally intelligent folks, I saw no one like that over there. In fact, there are quite a few folks over there that can't even understand that 19" brake rotors can not possibly fit inside a 19" rim. Literally and seriously. I made the mistake of trying to explain that a rim has to have some measurable thickness, and that a 19" rim has an inside diameter of less than 19", and therefore a 19" rotor could not possibly fit, let alone the brake calipers. A large number of them didn't see the problem, even when I further tried to explain the obvious--two objects can't occupy the same space at the same time. Maybe 50% or more of the people on the thread literally could not understand the problem. I won't label them because of that, because any accurate label would be very insulting. Let's not even mention the self described Ford Employee and Mach-e insider who who not only made a number of incredibly disgusting sexist remarks, but is thoroughly worshipped over there in spite of--or maybe because of--that.

 

[john5520]

Imagine walking up to your Tesla, and everyday before getting in, you have to open the back or passenger door first before you open the door on the driver's aside. Then you wait about 20-30 seconds for the car to 'boot' after which your system settings profile doesn't come up and you have to do some dance with the settings to get them to work. And even after it works, some of the radio station buttons don't appear. That's the start of your drive.

Now, on your way to work, there's a good chance you might see some random errors, some requiring a dealer visit that can sometimes take days. You get to the dealer and there's a high probability they're going to tell you "we don't know how to work on this and will need a Ford tech" and that's if you're lucky to find a dealer that are willing to go that far. Then imagine being totally OK with all that because the car looks great and drives smoothly. That seems to be the prevailing mentality of the Ford Mach-e owners.

 

[thesmokingman]

Yes, I was banned from macheforum for telling this kind of truth ...

I had this thought too before, but someone told me that Porsche is using MacPherson struts on 911. So, it is not necessarily that bad.

MacPherson struts is certainly not better than multi linkage or double a-arms setup but both of those take up a lot of space. Thus MacPherson strut setup makes it ideal for a front suspension due to its packaging and with the right support it can work well. However to use a MacPherson setup in the rear is lazy as hell and that is what they used on the Mach E? Seriously they used a generally front end specific MacPherson strut on the rear too?

 

[CyberGus]

...In fact, there are quite a few folks over there that can't even understand that 19" brake rotors can not possibly fit inside a 19" rim. Literally and seriously.

In the 80's, the A&W burger franchise attempted to compete with McDonald's "Quarter Pounder" with a larger, 1/3 pound burger at the same price. It was a total failure. When they conducted a survey to find out why, it turns out that most people thought 1/3 was smaller than 1/4.

'Merica


UPDATE: They have recently rebranded it as the "3/9th pounder" lool

 

[MontyFloyd]

I don’t agree that Ford was trying to target a high end market similar to the X

MachE is an econo SUV. Have you seen the interior? It’s a lot more similar to new RAV4 or CRV than it is to a Q5

Which really makes my scalp itch.
Mustang has a developed performance pedigree, and slap it on a average performance EV?
Now I better understand the raw anger at Ford by Mustang owners (more than being a 4 door car)

 

[tm1v2]

Imagine walking up to your Tesla, and everyday before getting in, you have to open the back or passenger door first before you open the door on the driver's aside. Then you wait about 20-30 seconds for the car to 'boot' after which your system settings profile doesn't come up and you have to do some dance with the settings to get them to work. And even after it works, some of the radio station buttons don't appear. That's the start of your drive.

No need for me to imagine, I've had exactly that experience with my older Tesla. Broken door handles, including driver's door handle where I had to open a different door then open the driver's door from inside. Computer often takes 30+ seconds to boot and reboot, sometimes several minutes, before I can drive. And for the past 2-3 years there's a set of buttons that are no longer properly visible on the touchscreen.

I do expect better from Ford, and I expect better from Tesla these days too.


Btw all this talk on struts being inferior...are you all tracking your cars, or cornering like you're on a racetrack such that the camber curve difference is actually relevant? Have you had uneven tire wear problems with struts that you couldn't correct with static camber adjustments, and think would be better with dual a-arms? Have you gone through iteration after iteration of wheel + tire + alignment + suspension setup on a car with struts and feel like you've truly reached a point where the dynamic camber is limiting you?

I'm skeptical that struts vs dual a-arms is relevant for any remotely responsible street driving. Certainly damping and spring setup is far more significant. And struts have real packaging benefits for a street car. Ever notice how turning radius is a weak point on Teslas? Cars with struts up front tend to have more room for the wheels to turn.

Would I actually rather have front struts than dual a-arms on my M3P? No, but I think there's a level of trash talking here that's gone beyond the real-world impact of struts dynamic camber on a street car.

 

[tm1v2]

Which really makes my scalp itch.
Mustang has a developed performance pedigree, and slap it on a average performance EV?
Now I better understand the raw anger at Ford by Mustang owners (more than being a 4 door car)

Yeah this. It sounds like Ford has technically met all of their official Mach-E performance specs, but for sure all the "Mustang" and "GT" and "Performance Edition" naming, and the highlighting of the 0-60 times over and over, set expectations that the power would be far more usable than it actually is.

I focused my Mach-E GT Performance Edition test drive on twisty back roads, never even took it on the highway, so I didn't really notice the power loss issue firsthand. The power felt fine in that driving. But I was basically making the same assumption that every unwitting Mach-E GT purchaser made - that Ford would at least deliver on the power, if nothing else, when they're calling it a Mustang GT and highlighting 0-60 in the mid-3s. In hindsight I am glad I didn't pick that car.

On my Mach-E Premium AWD test drive I did take it on the highway, and certainly felt it was less powerful there or anywhere than any dual motor Model Y or Model 3. That was expected from the specs though.

 

[MontyFloyd]

Yeah this. It sounds like Ford has technically met all of their official Mach-E performance specs, but for sure all the "Mustang" and "GT" and "Performance Edition" naming, and the highlighting of the 0-60 times over and over, set expectations that the power would be far more usable than it actually is.

like Munro says constantly.

Ford Exec: "Lets make our EV performance specs like our ICE cars, then they will know what they get!" Clapping in room.
Tesla Exec: "How can get more performance from batteries and motor for all our cars?" Opens engineering books

Should have called car either a Thunderbolt or Taurus...

 

[thesmokingman]

No need for me to imagine, I've had exactly that experience with my older Tesla. Broken door handles, including driver's door handle where I had to open a different door then open the driver's door from inside. Computer often takes 30+ seconds to boot and reboot, sometimes several minutes, before I can drive. And for the past 2-3 years there's a set of buttons that are no longer properly visible on the touchscreen.

I do expect better from Ford, and I expect better from Tesla these days too.

How old is that early S? My aunt has a 2013 with 190K+ miles iirc, might be earlier. It needed new handles too, mobile service did it. Those early cars are just that and their issues led to evolution of their product lines.

However the issues with the Ford are on a brand new vehicle. That is hardly comparable to an early Tesla.

 

[tm1v2]

How old is that early S? My aunt has a 2013 with 190K+ miles iirc, might be earlier. It needed new handles too, mobile service did it. Those early cars are just that and their issues led to evolution of their product lines.

However the issues with the Ford are on a brand new vehicle. That is hardly comparable to an early Tesla.

2013 as well. Yup a lot of lessons were learned from these early cars. In many cases, including the door handles, I was told the replacement or refurbished part was updated to be more reliable.

I miss the good ol' days of Tesla service. They do have a lot more locations now, it's nice not to have to drive so far, but they're all so overwhelmed now the local staff have no chance of providing truly good service, even if they want to. Gowing pains of a different kind!

 

[MontyFloyd]

I was told the replacement or refurbished part was updated to be more reliable

Maybe this

 

[Nakk]

Btw all this talk on struts being inferior...are you all tracking your cars, or cornering like you're on a racetrack such that the camber curve difference is actually relevant? Have you had uneven tire wear problems with struts that you couldn't correct with static camber adjustments, and think would be better with dual a-arms? Have you gone through iteration after iteration of wheel + tire + alignment + suspension setup on a car with struts and feel like you've truly reached a point where the dynamic camber is limiting you?

I'm skeptical that struts vs dual a-arms is relevant for any remotely responsible street driving. Certainly damping and spring setup is far more significant. And struts have real packaging benefits for a street car. Ever notice how turning radius is a weak point on Teslas? Cars with struts up front tend to have more room for the wheels to turn.

Would I actually rather have front struts than dual a-arms on my M3P? No, but I think there's a level of trash talking here that's gone beyond the real-world impact of struts dynamic camber on a street car.

We're talking comparing a GT Performance Edition. Yeah, it should have a performance suspension. It doesn't. The fact that Ford bans reviewers from testing it on a track should tell anyone just how bad it handles. And the turning radius is a big 6 inches less than the Y. It's not just one thing with the E. It's the entire car. Yeah, I'm trash talking it because it's rolling junk, and is going to be to expensive to maintain after 100K miles. Fixing a coolant hose leak, which will be a semi annual affair by then, is going to cost thousands. Those hoses aren't easy to get to. This care is designed to make Ford Dealership Service Departments money, and my money is going to subsidize this. So again, yeah I'm going to trash talk it. The E is going to give EVs a bad name when the warranty runs out and it costs double to maintain compared to an ICE vehicle. So, yeah, I'm going to trash talk it.

 

[Zorg]

No need for me to imagine, I've had exactly that experience with my older Tesla. Broken door handles, including driver's door handle where I had to open a different door then open the driver's door from inside. Computer often takes 30+ seconds to boot and reboot, sometimes several minutes, before I can drive. And for the past 2-3 years there's a set of buttons that are no longer properly visible on the touchscreen.

I do expect better from Ford, and I expect better from Tesla these days too.


Btw all this talk on struts being inferior...are you all tracking your cars, or cornering like you're on a racetrack such that the camber curve difference is actually relevant? Have you had uneven tire wear problems with struts that you couldn't correct with static camber adjustments, and think would be better with dual a-arms? Have you gone through iteration after iteration of wheel + tire + alignment + suspension setup on a car with struts and feel like you've truly reached a point where the dynamic camber is limiting you?

I'm skeptical that struts vs dual a-arms is relevant for any remotely responsible street driving. Certainly damping and spring setup is far more significant. And struts have real packaging benefits for a street car. Ever notice how turning radius is a weak point on Teslas? Cars with struts up front tend to have more room for the wheels to turn.

Would I actually rather have front struts than dual a-arms on my M3P? No, but I think there's a level of trash talking here that's gone beyond the real-world impact of struts dynamic camber on a street car.

That's true, but for those that enjoy responsible spirited driving (like say on a freeway cloverleaf entrance), it's nice to have a good suspension. It's 2021, so I expect a high end car (at least price wise) to have top shelf bits, regardless of whether I'll extract every bit of performance out of it or not. Fact is that 3 and Y have top notch handling.

 

[tm1v2]

That's true, but for those that enjoy responsible spirited driving (like say on a freeway cloverleaf entrance), it's nice to have a good suspension. It's 2021, so I expect a high end car (at least price wise) to have top shelf bits, regardless of whether I'll extract every bit of performance out of it or not. Fact is that 3 and Y have top notch handling.

Agree to disagree? Stock Model 3 handling is a hot mess, it only works okay on smooth roads without quick transitions. So, yeah, a highway cloverleaf entrance is fine. It's not great even there, still feels slow to react and not as settled compared to many sporty cars, but it's okay and can put the tire's grip to use there.

On uneven twisty back roads though - the most fun roads to me - the handling falls apart, with the weight bouncing and shifting all over, sometimes crashing into the bump stops, and never settling down. I believe it's mainly just crappy damping (or the whole dampers+springs combo), I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with the suspension or chassis. I'm eagerly awaiting the coilovers I ordered!

There was too much traffic during my Y test drive to push it that hard, but I would be pretty shocked if its stock suspension handled such roads better than the 3.

 

[john5520]

2013 as well. Yup a lot of lessons were learned from these early cars. In many cases, including the door handles, I was told the replacement or refurbished part was updated to be more reliable.

I miss the good ol' days of Tesla service. They do have a lot more locations now, it's nice not to have to drive so far, but they're all so overwhelmed now the local staff have no chance of providing truly good service, even if they want to. Gowing pains of a different kind!

Yeah, can't really compare the early Teslas. Apples and oranges. And quite a few of those are still running. Not sure the Mach-E will stand up that well without having to have a ton of parts replaced.

This is 2021 and Ford had a baseline car with which to compare: The Model Y. No excuses. They also have a huge network of dealers, half of which are scummy, shady outfits with techs I wouldn't trust to change a tire. I'll stick with Tesla and their overburdened dealer network.

 

[Zorg]

Agree to disagree? Stock Model 3 handling is a hot mess, it only works okay on smooth roads without quick transitions. So, yeah, a highway cloverleaf entrance is fine. It's not great even there, still feels slow to react and not as settled compared to many sporty cars, but it's okay and can put the tire's grip to use there.

On uneven twisty back roads though - the most fun roads to me - the handling falls apart, with the weight bouncing and shifting all over, sometimes crashing into the bump stops, and never settling down. I believe it's mainly just crappy damping (or the whole dampers+springs combo), I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with the suspension or chassis. I'm eagerly awaiting the coilovers I ordered!

There was too much traffic during my Y test drive to push it that hard, but I would be pretty shocked if its stock suspension handled such roads better than the 3.

Definitely agree to disagree. I've had a 3 LR and now drive a Y LR. I guess I don't push the cars hard enough to get to the same conclusions. I've driven both on twisties, and they're both some of the funnest cars I've ever driven (granted, I've never owned a sport car). I'm sure behavior could be improved with after market tuning, but for the vast majority of users, cars handle great right out of the factory.

 

[tm1v2]

Definitely agree to disagree. I've had a 3 LR and now drive a Y LR. I guess I don't push the cars hard enough to get to the same conclusions. I've driven both on twisties, and they're both some of the funnest cars I've ever driven (granted, I've never owned a sport car). I'm sure behavior could be improved with after market tuning, but for the vast majority of users, cars handle great right out of the factory.

Agreed on fun right out of the box! Yeah I am picky about handling and driving feel.

 

[Loops]

The stock MYP is a complete mess anywhere near the handling limit but so is just about any vehicle with this size/weight... it's stiff and has enough grip so it's pretty satisfying at reasonable speeds (especially if you get rid of the stock wheels which weigh almost 40 pounds each). There does seems to be general consensus among the youtube reviewers that the other models have the same problem. Unfortunately Tesla's performance suspension engineering seems to lag behind the competition (BMW M, AMG, Audi RS etc.).