ChargePoint CCS DCFC

[jelloslug]

And now you know why some EVers find it unusual that some destination charger locations are Tesla only. The business eliminates probably 2/3 of the kind of clientele they are trying to attract. In many cases I believe it is because they are simply unaware of what formats and standards are out there. Which is why we bought a Tesla Wall charger to J1772 adapter. Obviously not a solution with DCFC and of course Telsa Super chargers are a different unrelated topic.

But yah. If I was Fred Myer I probably would have put in a combo station. This whole CCS Chademo situation is going to have to be sorted out sooner or later.

All the destination chargers that I have seen have had both HPWC and Clipper Creek CS-80s. I'm sure that there are some places that are not configured that way but from what I understand, when Tesla supplies the units you get both.

 

[Webeevdrivers]

All the destination chargers that I have seen have had both HPWC and Clipper Creek CS-80s. I'm sure that there are some places that are not configured that way but from what I understand, when Tesla supplies the units you get both.

Good morning Jelloslug. Unfortunately we have found quite a few locations where there is only the Tesla EVSE. And if anything I see it more often lately as sites pop up on Plugshare. Most of the time when we talk to the owner or staff they are surprised that the TESLA EVSE wouldn't work with other EV's. This may be a regional thing. We live in the interiour of BC. But I noticed another location show up yesterday in Vancouver. Park Royal in West Vancouver added 6 new Tesla HPWC's. Good to see the build out but sometimes I wonder if businesses realize they are shutting out a fairly big piece of the EV world.

No matter for us, we bought a Telsa to 1772 adapter that allows to plug in to an Tesla EVSE although I try to avoid doing this. We may or probably will be Tesla owners one day but in the meantime our us and two EV's would not be able to patronize these locations without this adapter.

John.

 

[jbcarioca]

For North America: I think we'll have J1772, CCS, CHAdeMO and Tesla standards coexisting for years, maybe decades. Single electrical connector standards do not exist in any category, although sometimes one is dominant. CCS will end out being dominant when the Europeans produce a high volume of BEV's, and CCS speeds will rapidly rise.

Tesla supports CCS in Europe anyway and they are a full member of CharIN, the CCS standards organisation. There will be CCS adapters once that happens, but they'll be quite restrictive in speed because of the connector risk, probably similar to the 125 Amp limit for CHAdeMO adapters.

CHAdeMO will get faster too, and will continue so long as Japan holds out. The installed base is large enough to keep that going.

Anyway, DC charging stations can easily allow use of either CCS, CHAdeMO or Tesla so long as only a single plug is connected at a time. The different technical character does suggest that CCS will eventually find favour because of the ease of establishing myriad payment options, but public stations right now can and often do allow a wide variety of plastic payment types. Very few, only in Europe IIRC, make use of the native CharIN payment authorisation process and instead use it only for a simple authorisation, with payment processing external to CharIN.

Were I a Tesla driver in the NorthWest US or Canada I'd certainly have a CHAdeMO adapter. Actually I do have one.

As for public charging places having support for multiple types, there is a different question. Tesla provides HPWC with a Clipper Cheek or multiple ones sometimes, and helps with installation. That gives any such location Tesla plus J1772, as well as use by any non-Tesla driver who buys a Tesla adapter from a third party. The often have CHAdeMO too, most often subsidised by Nissan. Bluntly, most public places will not provide charging without some inducements. They're about to have lots of CCS in the US as ChargePoint spends more VW settlement money.

 

[TexasEV]

All the destination chargers that I have seen have had both HPWC and Clipper Creek CS-80s. I'm sure that there are some places that are not configured that way but from what I understand, when Tesla supplies the units you get both.

Not routinely-- only the larger installations if requested. There's plenty of single HPWC destination charger locations.

 

[RDoc]

I am going from Portland to Corvallis. There is a SP charger in Woodburn that I can top off at when I leave but with the the 22" wheels, using the heater or A/C I will be down to less than 50% when I get there. Once there I cannot do any driving, or I have to leave my car parked at a level 2 charger, which is fine. I would not make it back to Woodburn.

That's about 60 miles! If you have that little range, something is seriously wrong.

 

[MP3Mike]

Tesla supports CCS in Europe anyway

Really? How are they supporting CCS? Is there an adapter? Have they added CCS inlets to the cars?

 

[jbcarioca]

Really? How are they supporting CCS? Is there an adapter? Have they added CCS inlets to the cars?

That is it:

This is a Mennekes Type 2 plug

For Superchargers this plug is used, the NA plug is not present in the cars. There are more details, including CharIN standards for extra pins in DC Fast, for Tesla Europe cars are not now equipped for the extra pins for CCS DC Fast. All Tesla cars are equipped with the software standard required for CCS DC Fast communications, even the US ones.

For more information there are numerous threads here. I have summarised it so succinctly that it ignores things like pin assignment, and other issues.

 

[MP3Mike]

@jbcarioca That is not a CCS socket.

And Tesla doesn't support the CCS standard anywhere at this point. (Supporting it would mean that one of their cars would be capable of plugging in to a CCS charger and getting a charge from it right?)

 

[jbcarioca]

oh, goodness. Here are two links:
Europe
EV DC Fast Charging standards – CHAdeMO, CCS, SAE Combo, Tesla Supercharger, etc

The Tesla Europe cars do get Supercharger speeds. Please check the links.
They also get DC charging in some other places. The added pins that make it SAE Combo Charging System are not present. I said that in my post.
What you do not know is that for NA CCS the base plug is different than in Europe. On Mennekes 2, in Europe people can and do Supercharge.
NA CCS uses a J1772 so any J1772 equipped car can actually eb charged on then but the charge will be limited to level 2. most NA CCS do not enable that, some do. Nobody advertises that.

Disagree all you like. if you study all the admittedly arcane standards you'll find them to be unduly compels, ridiculous at points, and permissive of things that are not done at all, so far.

All the standards for BEV charging are evolving. No single standard will be dominated for years.

In the meantime, as you'll find out by looking at Tesla China charge ports, Tesla EU and others, everyone is sufficiently non-standard that Tesla has multiple installed ports now in China.
I will not link that one. It's not hard to find. I did link a high level description of all the presently available standards.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Not routinely-- only the larger installations if requested. There's plenty of single HPWC destination charger locations.

It was mentioned that the ratio is 2:1. If you have only a single or dual spots, then it won't have a J1772 unless the owner installed on their own dime.

 

[stopcrazypp]

oh, goodness. Here are two links:
Europe
EV DC Fast Charging standards – CHAdeMO, CCS, SAE Combo, Tesla Supercharger, etc

The Tesla Europe cars do get Supercharger speeds. Please check the links.
They also get DC charging in some other places. The added pins that make it SAE Combo Charging System are not present. I said that in my post.
What you do not know is that for NA CCS the base plug is different than in Europe. On Mennekes 2, in Europe people can and do Supercharge.
NA CCS uses a J1772 so any J1772 equipped car can actually eb charged on then but the charge will be limited to level 2. most NA CCS do not enable that, some do. Nobody advertises that.

Disagree all you like. if you study all the admittedly arcane standards you'll find them to be unduly compels, ridiculous at points, and permissive of things that are not done at all, so far.

All the standards for BEV charging are evolving. No single standard will be dominated for years.

In the meantime, as you'll find out by looking at Tesla China charge ports, Tesla EU and others, everyone is sufficiently non-standard that Tesla has multiple installed ports now in China.
I will not link that one. It's not hard to find. I did link a high level description of all the presently available standards.

There is zero evidence that there is even a single CCS charger that supports level 2 DC charging without the CCS pins. Also, there is zero evidence so far that Tesla even has the PLC communication necessary to make that work and no one has ever demonstrating that working.

Admittedly, I have previously quoted Straubel's remark that suggested that is in there, but so far we have not seen it being used. The first analog half of the supercharger protocol is the same as CCS, but the digital part is different (uses CAN and not PLC).

 

[MP3Mike]

What you do not know is that for NA CCS the base plug is different than in Europe.

Umm. Yes I do.

On Mennekes 2, in Europe people can and do Supercharge.

Sure, but that has nothing to do with CCS. That is using a Tesla proprietary charging standard on a standard Mennekes 2 plug.

NA CCS uses a J1772 so any J1772 equipped car can actually eb charged on then but the charge will be limited to level 2.

Nope. You can't plug a CCS Combo plug in to a J1772 only car. (At least any I have seen. None of them have the empty room under the J1772 socket for the "add-on" pins to go to allow the main J1772 plug to plug in to the car.) You can't even fit the Tesla J1772 adapter on to a CCS Combo plug.

In the meantime, as you'll find out by looking at Tesla China charge ports, Tesla EU and others, everyone is sufficiently non-standard that Tesla has multiple installed ports now in China.

I know that Tesla supports the GB/T standard in China, both AC and DC, but that has nothing to do with CCS, and doesn't show that Tesla is supporting CCS in Europe.

Show me any Tesla car charging from a CCS charger and then I will agree that Tesla supports CCS. (That hasn't been modified by someone other than Tesla.)

 

[Super_Popular]

That's about 60 miles! If you have that little range, something is seriously wrong.

It's 95 miles to where I am going. With 22"s, running the heater and hills etc.....I get there with less than %50....according to Tesla Nav. 75D have "239" range , with 22" that drops to around 200 or so.

 

[jbcarioca]

There is zero evidence that there is even a single CCS charger that supports level 2 DC charging without the CCS pins. Also, there is zero evidence so far that Tesla even has the PLC communication necessary to make that work and no one has ever demonstrating that working.

Admittedly, I have previously quoted Straubel's remark that suggested that is in there, but so far we have not seen it being used. The first analog half of the supercharger protocol is the same as CCS, but the digital part is different (uses CAN and not PLC).

There is no such thing as Level 2 DC. Level 2 is an AC standard.
http://charinev.org/ccs-at-a-glance/ccs-specification
“As the world’s only open and universal charging system for electric vehicles, the Combined Charging System (CCS) technology and architecture has been enshrined in international standards. The CCS covers single-phase AC, three-phase AC and DC high-speed charging, in both Europe and the US – all in a single, easy to use ...

• signaling (pilot signal) in compliance with IEC 61851-1 Annex A
• AC charging with the Type2-connector (for a 3-phase AC infrastructure as e.g. in Germany in compliance with IEC 62196-2 norm)
• DC charging with the Combo2 connector (in Europe) in compliance with the IEC 62196-3 norm
• the communication interface based on ISO/IEC 15118 and DIN SPEC 70121”

I’ll stop soon since this subject does require reading the standards. The CCS was developed precisely so that L2 would be available and L3 also for vehicles do equipped. The word “combined” is a hint that both are available. Tesla European Superchargers DO use the Mennekes 2 base with modified pin rules. I am not making this up. Check the links.


As for communications to support CharIN authorizations and billing.
“ SAE J1772 standard plug-in electric vehicle charger also requires HomePlug Green PHY to establish communications over a powerline before the vehicle can begin to draw any charging power.”
If you read the ac communications protocol standards for CharIN ‘lo and behold’,
“The PLC protocol used for fast charge control on CCS systems is HomePlug Phy. The signals are sent over the J1772 portion of the connector – PLC means Power Line Control, meaning data signals are sent across AC power lines.”

So, to be really simple about it there is no need to question an old quotation from JB, just look it up.

None of this makes it easier for the OP right now. Since CCS Combo rules from CharIN do not yet permit adapters for the DC Fast part, we’ll need to wait until one becomes approved. Since Tesla is a full member of CharIN it’s reasonable to expect such an adapter to be permitted, but it will be Power-limited.

Sorry about so many words and links. Most people have a hard time to understand the CharIN, CCS Combo, CharIN, SAE, China, and CHAdeMO issues, much less HomePlug. Charging standards are in constant flux and evolution.

Please accept my apologies for not adequately explaining why CCS Combines to support both DC and AC plus an AC-based authorization system in HomePlug Green PHY. Sadly, any simplification ends out being misleading, at least when I do it.

Short term solution: have several adapters. I have four.

 

[MP3Mike]

There is no such thing as Level 2 DC. Level 2 is an AC standard.

There are DC Level 1, and DC Level 2 charging. DC Level 3 hasn't been formalized yet.

The SAE J1772 committee has also proposed a DC connector based on the SAE J1772-2009 AC connector shape with additional DC and ground pins to support charging at 200–450 V DC and 80 A (36 kW) for DC Level 1 and up to 200 A (90 kW) for DC Level 2[18] after evaluating the J1772-2009 connector against other designs including the JARI/TEPCO connector used by the CHAdeMO DC fast charge protocol.[19] The SAE DC Level 3 charging levels have not been determined, but the standard as it exists as of 2009 has the potential to charge at 200–600 V DC at a maximum of 400 A (240 kW).

 

[jbcarioca]

There are DC Level 1, and DC Level 2 charging. DC Level 3 hasn't been formalized yet.

Sure, SAE refers to level 1, 2,3 AC and level 1,2,3 DC.
That's not the way the vast majority of BEV participants refer.
Here is Plug In America as an example:
Understanding Electric Vehicle Charging - Plug In America
Chargepoint also uses standard terminology:
https://www.chargepoint.com/files/Quick_Guide_to_Fast_Charging.pdf

CharIN uses the following classes for DC, the generally accepted worldwide definitions (SAE will probably get there sometime):

FWIW, CharIN has described a 1000V/800A charging station, which will demand actively cooled connections. Tesla has already put in test production liquid cooled cords, some version of which is needed if power rises much beyond the present typical max Supercharger rates.

 

[Jeff N]

There are DC Level 1, and DC Level 2 charging. DC Level 3 hasn't been formalized yet.

Right. SAE DC Level 2 is what CCS has been supporting over the last several years at 125A EVgo stations etc. The new Level 3 standard is obviously very advanced since multiple DC charger makers have announced products imminently ready for sale. My understanding is that the CharIN association has internally voted to approve new standards that support at least 350A at 1000V but as of early this year there was still internal discussion about increasing that to 400A or higher. These new standards have apparently not made it through the various national and international standards committees yet so they may not have been “formally” approved (which might be a condition for sale in some markets).

As I understand it, DC Level 1 just requires the J1772 plug without the extra two DC-only pins added by CCS. In other words, like Tesla connectors, the basic J1772 power pins could be used for either AC or DC at up to 80A. In reality, I have never heard of anyone doing DC charging over just the regular J1772 plug. My guess is that few, if any, J1772 vehicles support Level 1 DC charging without the CCS pins.

FWIW, CharIN has described a 1000V/800A charging station, which will demand actively cooled connections.

I’m not aware of CharIN planning to imminently support 800A charging. I suspect you were thinking of 400A.

 

[stopcrazypp]

There is no such thing as Level 2 DC. Level 2 is an AC standard.
http://charinev.org/ccs-at-a-glance/ccs-specification
“As the world’s only open and universal charging system for electric vehicles, the Combined Charging System (CCS) technology and architecture has been enshrined in international standards. The CCS covers single-phase AC, three-phase AC and DC high-speed charging, in both Europe and the US – all in a single, easy to use ...

• signaling (pilot signal) in compliance with IEC 61851-1 Annex A
• AC charging with the Type2-connector (for a 3-phase AC infrastructure as e.g. in Germany in compliance with IEC 62196-2 norm)
• DC charging with the Combo2 connector (in Europe) in compliance with the IEC 62196-3 norm
• the communication interface based on ISO/IEC 15118 and DIN SPEC 70121”

I’ll stop soon since this subject does require reading the standards. The CCS was developed precisely so that L2 would be available and L3 also for vehicles do equipped. The word “combined” is a hint that both are available. Tesla European Superchargers DO use the Mennekes 2 base with modified pin rules. I am not making this up. Check the links.


As for communications to support CharIN authorizations and billing.
“ SAE J1772 standard plug-in electric vehicle charger also requires HomePlug Green PHY to establish communications over a powerline before the vehicle can begin to draw any charging power.”
If you read the ac communications protocol standards for CharIN ‘lo and behold’,
“The PLC protocol used for fast charge control on CCS systems is HomePlug Phy. The signals are sent over the J1772 portion of the connector – PLC means Power Line Control, meaning data signals are sent across AC power lines.”

So, to be really simple about it there is no need to question an old quotation from JB, just look it up.

None of this makes it easier for the OP right now. Since CCS Combo rules from CharIN do not yet permit adapters for the DC Fast part, we’ll need to wait until one becomes approved. Since Tesla is a full member of CharIN it’s reasonable to expect such an adapter to be permitted, but it will be Power-limited.

Sorry about so many words and links. Most people have a hard time to understand the CharIN, CCS Combo, CharIN, SAE, China, and CHAdeMO issues, much less HomePlug. Charging standards are in constant flux and evolution.

Please accept my apologies for not adequately explaining why CCS Combines to support both DC and AC plus an AC-based authorization system in HomePlug Green PHY. Sadly, any simplification ends out being misleading, at least when I do it.

Short term solution: have several adapters. I have four.

Others already told you: there is such thing as level 2 DC charging (that's what most DC chargers are). I did make one mistake though, in the context of the US CCS standard, I was talking about level 1 DC charging (charging DC only through J1772 connector).

As for regular J1772 AC charging, it does not use PLC, but rather just the pilot signal.
Google Code Archive - Long-term storage for Google Code Project Hosting.

The PLC part is only used when DC charging.

 

[jbcarioca]

Others already told you: there is such thing as level 2 DC charging (that's what most DC chargers are). I did make one mistake though, in the context of the US CCS standard, I was talking about level 1 DC charging (charging DC only through J1772 connector).

As for regular J1772 AC charging, it does not use PLC, but rather just the pilot signal.
Google Code Archive - Long-term storage for Google Code Project Hosting.

The PLC part is only used when DC charging.

Yes, SAE says so. I give up. It's not worth arguing.

The OP just wants to charge, and NA Teslas cannot do DC charging in US CCS. Maybe we can agree on that small point.

 

[Big Earl]

Yes, SAE says so. I give up. It's not worth arguing.

The OP just wants to charge, and NA Teslas cannot do DC charging in US CCS. Maybe we can agree on that small point.

European Teslas can't do DC charging on EU CCS either, since EU CCS is a "Frankenplug," which is a Mennekes Type 2 with the CCS bits attached to it (similar to the US J1772 CCS combo plug).