Chevy Bolt - 200 mile range for $30k base price (after incentive)

[diamond.g]

It's true that peak charging kW rates are not the full story. Even though a Model S charges a lot faster in terms of kW it is noticeably less efficient than the Bolt EV overall and then helps to compensate to some degree although the Bolt will still take an extra 15-30 minutes in many cases to match the added miles added in a Tesla with a similarly sized battery pack.


It's pretty clear at this point based on published statements by GM and from discussions with individual GM officials that the car will likely have a peak charging rate less than 60 kW and less than 160a -- probably around 55 kW and 150a. As Techmaven noted, it's possible that they might loosen up the charging limits after they have more field experience with real-world charging similar to what Tesla did with the early Model S Supercharging.

I would be interested in seeing if they do so with existing vehicles or only add the improvement to new model year vehicles. I haven't heard of Chevy adding new features to older MY cars, especially OTA.

 

[Jeff N]

I would be interested in seeing if they do so with existing vehicles or only add the improvement to new model year vehicles. I haven't heard of Chevy adding new features to older MY cars, especially OTA.

They have never had OTA update ability before the Bolt EV. Even with OTA on the Bolt it isn't yet certain how they will use it. Will they just fix bugs in the infotainment unit? Will they add new features? Only in the infotainment unit or for things like EV charging behavior?

My guess, is that they will only really do fixes and modest feature and user interface improvements to the infotainment and driver display screens. I'm doubtful they will update the DC charging behavior on the 2017 cars but they may have to be more aggressive in future model years to be competitive with the future LEAF and other cars.

I'd like to have faster DC charging but as I've said before, I've found the car to be perfectly adequate for relaxed 400-500 mile daily driving due to its longer battery driving range even at average charge rates of 40 kW.

 

[SageBrush]

Although the Ioniq uses active forced air cooling for its battery pack it does use NMC cells from a different supplier (LG instead of SK Innovation cells used in the Soul EV) and the new cells could have different aging characteristics. In contrast, the Bolt EV uses active liquid cooling and claims to have tweaked the chemistry in the LG cells to be more heat tolerant than generic NMC.

Who has warranties consistent with their claims ? I know GM does not.

And before you mention that Tesla has no degradation warranty at all -- I know that. The difference is that with the Tesla battery we have data and years of experience.

 

[SageBrush]

I'd like to have faster DC charging but as I've said before, I've found the car to be perfectly adequate for relaxed 400-500 mile daily driving due to its longer battery driving range even at average charge rates of 40 kW.

For one specific route in California.

 

[GSP]

It's true that peak charging kW rates are not the full story. Even though a Model S charges a lot faster in terms of kW it is noticeably less efficient than the Bolt EV overall and that helps to compensate to some degree although the Bolt will still take an extra 15-30 minutes in many cases to match the miles added in a Tesla with a similarly sized battery pack.......

This is where the Ioniq really shines. Its top notch energy efficiency requires less Wh/mile than the either Model S or Bolt EV, cutting down on the charge time required on trips.

The Ioniq also has good support for > 125 Amp DC charging, as seen in Bjørn's video. This probably makes it the champion of non-Tesla EVs for shortest charge times required on trips.

GSP

 

[Jeff N]

For one specific route in California.

No, I've driven a trip to LA on US-101 and to Fresno on CA-99. Those are completely different routes and both were over 400 miles on the first day of driving. The LA trip was one-way down there whereas the Fresno trip was a one-day loop down there and back.

 

[SageBrush]

No, I've driven a trip to LA on US-101 and to Fresno on CA-99. Those are completely different routes and both were over 400 miles on the first day of driving. The LA trip was one-way down there whereas the Fresno trip was a one-day loop down there and back.

Right. TWO trips

 

[scaesare]

For what it's worth, I've found the info and opinions @Jeff N provides to be pretty objective and insightful. I see getting the first hand perspective of a level-headed Bolt owner pretty valuable as an EV enthusiast.

In general, there's a pretty up front dissemination of facts, which I appreciate, as it allows me to form my own opinions.

 

[McRat]

We might find out the max limits of Bolt EV in May:

Opel CEO Confirms First Ampera-E Deliveries In Norway Set For May

 

[stopcrazypp]

We might find out the max limits of Bolt EV in May:

Opel CEO Confirms First Ampera-E Deliveries In Norway Set For May

There is still a chance of finding out earlier if there are some California installations of higher power CCS that happens before then.

 

[McRat]

Who has warranties consistent with their claims ? I know GM does not.

And before you mention that Tesla has no degradation warranty at all -- I know that. The difference is that with the Tesla battery we have data and years of experience.

The Chevrolet test bed for lithium traction batteries was the Volt. How did they fare?

Zero Chevrolet Volt Batteries Replaced So Far Due To "General Capacity Degradation"
World's First 300,000-Mile Chevrolet Volt

The highest known mileage is 372,500 miles with 129,500 of them on EV. That's a huge amount of full charge/discharge cycles on those cells, without even counting hybrid mode cycling. I think he has the 16kWh battery, so that would be like a Bolt or MS 60 running over 600k miles.

I'm betting Chevrolet was worried about lawyers. EV's lose range in very hot and very cold situations. Courts are not a place for engineers, they are a place for politics and opinions.

 

[Jeff N]

Right. TWO trips

How many trips would make you feel warm and fuzzy? Just curious....

 

[SageBrush]

How many trips would make you feel warm and fuzzy? Just curious....

If I bought a Bolt, I think I would be quite pleased at two. It's a matter of exceeding expectations.

 

[techmaven]

The Chevrolet test bed for lithium traction batteries was the Volt. How did they fare?

Zero Chevrolet Volt Batteries Replaced So Far Due To "General Capacity Degradation"
World's First 300,000-Mile Chevrolet Volt

The highest known mileage is 372,500 miles with 129,500 of them on EV. That's a huge amount of full charge/discharge cycles on those cells, without even counting hybrid mode cycling. I think he has the 16kWh battery, so that would be like a Bolt or MS 60 running over 600k miles.

I'm betting Chevrolet was worried about lawyers. EV's lose range in very hot and very cold situations. Courts are not a place for engineers, they are a place for politics and opinions.

The Volt's battery pack and overall battery system has a very different design than the Bolt. It has a completely different battery chemistry and completely different buffer level. It is optimized completely differently. For example, the 2013 Volt's battery pack only exposed 10.9 kWh out of the 16.5 kWh nominal capacity, or a buffer of 34%. Idaho National Labs AVT testing shows 9% degradation over the testing mileage of 128,774 miles:

https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/phev/batteryVolt4313.pdf

With 15.1 kWh capacity still remaining, there is no outward visible loss of capacity since only 10.9 kWh is exposed.

The Bolt, however, has a far smaller buffer. We don't quite yet know the real nominal capacity on the Bolt yet though. But likely the buffer is likely around 6-8%, not 34%. And the chemistry is completely different, optimized for specific energy instead of power density. We really don't know yet the life cycle performance of the Bolt's battery pack. One inkling is the very conservative DCFC rate. I suspect that is to try to preserve battery lifecycle. As for much faster DCFC, especially with the taper kicking below 125 amps at 53-54% SOC, there's not much hope that it will take a lot more amps than 160.

 

[brucet999]

Finding cars that work for my wife and I is always a bit of a challenge... I'm about 5'10" and thin, but have kinda short legs and a generous helping of preferences when it comes to back support and the positioning of driver interaction points. My wife is about 5'1/2" and also fairly small, but has chronic back problems.

Some examples:
NA/NB Miata: Both fit without issue, seats are tolerable
NC Miata: Neither of us fit properly (toe pointing for clutch operation on her part, and knee bashing on the lower dash for both of us)
E36/7 M Roadster: She couldn't drive it at all (steering wheel didn't telescope, seat didn't go far enough forward to operate the clutch, bolsters pushed her shoulders forward) and I found the driving position a little awkward, but the seats were supportive (if painfully hard on longer trips)
2012 Nissan Leaf: Mostly worked for both of us, but the seats made my back hurt after about 20 minutes

...and these were just examples of a few of the cars we've owned (aside from the NC Miata). I couldn't even put together a list of the dozens of cars we've both looked at/tested/driven under various circumstances.

This would have been more enlightening without the incomprehensible NA NB NC E36 appellations.

 

[Petra]

This would have been more enlightening without the incomprehensible NA NB NC E36 appellations.

NA, NB, & NC refer to the first, second, and third generations, respectively, of the Mazda Miata... the current Miata is the ND (haven't given one of those a go yet). E36/7 refers to the BMW Z3 (indicating that this M Roadster was the one based on the Z3), E36/8 is the Z3 coupe (of which there was also an M variant), E36 on the other hand is the old 3-series from the 90's. It's simpler to just use the codes than it is to keep track of a bunch of production year ranges.

 

[Jeff N]

2017 AUTOMOBILE All-Stars: The Winners | Automobile Magazine

 

[TonyWilliams]

Even at 200 amps, the Bolt EV won't charge that much faster. Perhaps 105 EPA miles in 30 minutes at the lowest battery SOC% instead of 75-90 miles.

The highest observed amps that the Bolt can handle is 125 amps. This could be because of the 125 amp limit of the chargers, or it could be because GM engineers limited the Bolt EV to 125 amps, or both.

The voltage component of power in the Bolt EV is 300 to 400 volts (plus or minus 5 volts at the top end).

So, rolling into a 125 amp charger with an empty battery, you can expect:

125a * 300v = 37.5kW

Could the Bolt EV take 200 amps? I'm very confident that it can. Is it programmed to allow anything above 125 amps? We don't know... yet.

So, to answer your question, should the Bolt EV be able to handle 126-200 amps, the charge rate will likely look like this:

0% SOC : 200a * 300v = 60.0kW
25% SOC: 175a * 330v = 57.7kW
50% SOC : 125a * 355v = 44.5kW
75% SOC : 60a * 380v = 19.0kW

Using the above assumptions, and using the EPA data of 4 miles range per kWh, then the average charge rate using a 200 amp capable charger might be:

52.5kW average charge rate between 0% and 50% which will add 0.875kWh per minute, or 3.5 EPA miles added per minute average.

That's 105 EPA miles added in 30 minutes. Obviously, the higher 126-200 amp charge rate offers no benefit whatsoever above 50% SOC.

One final note on the 80kW charger issue that GM introduced in the owner's manual:

1) there is exactly zero 80kW chargers in the world for EVs

2) there are exactly zero 80kW chargers that are planned to be built

3) there will be (and already are in Europe and S. Korea) 200a * 500v = 100kW chargers, and 250-350 amp chargers are coming.

 

[Cyclone]

I've never sat in a vehicle where the seats have been an issue.

That is good for you. I've never had a Chevy rental where the seats have NOT been an issue for me.

 

[PJFW8]

That is good for you. I've never had a Chevy rental where the seats have NOT been an issue for me.

My family sold Chevy. The cheapest VW had more comfortable seats than a Caprice!