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I'll just leave this gem here. No further comments.

And we all know how "reliable" YouTube videos are as sources of information. If I were so inclined I could post YouTube videos "proving" that the Earth is flat, that people never walked on the moon, that the government has an ET imprisoned at Area 51, that over-unity machines are real, that ETs are regularly kidnapping people for gruesome experiments, that Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster are real, that there's a non-avian dinosaur living in Africa, etc., etc., etc. I could probably find "proof" on YouTube that Elvis shot JFK.

Anybody can post a video filled with outright lies on YouTube. Posting videos like the above is worthless.
 
And we all know how "reliable" YouTube videos are as sources of information. If I were so inclined I could post YouTube videos "proving" that the Earth is flat, that people never walked on the moon, that the government has an ET imprisoned at Area 51, that over-unity machines are real, that ETs are regularly kidnapping people for gruesome experiments, that Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster are real, that there's a non-avian dinosaur living in Africa, etc., etc., etc. I could probably find "proof" on YouTube that Elvis shot JFK.

Anybody can post a video filled with outright lies on YouTube. Posting videos like the above is worthless.

Actually, he's not wrong.

Natural immunity has shown to produce more varied and longer-lasting immunity than with any of the vaccines.

The problem is there is about a 1 in 200-400 chance of death if you go the natural immunity route (varies by age, but that's the overall number).


Recent study has demonstrated that those that have been vaccinated and then get Omicron have the absolute best antibody profile (think of Omicron as a "super booster" in this regard):

This is absolutely NOT surprising, for anyone that has more than a passing understanding of microbiology. The vaccine-induced antibodies are protecting people against death and severe disease, but not complete infection (this is common with vaccines - so don't think it is some defect in how these were designed). Those that then get infected by Omicron are able to fight off the virus before severe disease, and in the process build up additional antibodies to epitopes of the virus that are not included in the vaccine (the vaccine is built with only the S-protein, and the original strain of that).
 
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Do we have data to show that holds true for triple vaxed, and also with Omicron?

See above article.

Remember, with vaccines the manufacturers have selected a section of the virus to drive an immune response (in this case the S-protein). There are many other proteins on CV that induce immune responses, and the vaccines cannot drive those immune responses, only a natural infection. You can keep hammering away as much as you want driving an immune response to the same protein, but eventually the immune response plateaus.

With a natural infection, you get a much more broad multi-epitope antibody and T-cell response.

I've said it before, and I'll said it again: this is why those that have PROOF of prior COVID infection (hospital records, lab tests, etc.) should be afforded the same privileges that vaccinated individuals are afforded. Vaccinated immunity is not superior to natural immunity, it's just a safer path to get there.
 
Omicron largely evades immunity from past infection or two vaccine doses | Imperial News | Imperial College London

"Omicron largely evades immunity from past infection or two vaccine doses according to Imperial's latest report.

The new report (Report 49) from the Imperial College London COVID-19 response team estimates that the risk of reinfection with the Omicron variant is 5.4 times greater than that of the Delta variant. This implies that the protection against reinfection by Omicron afforded by past infection may be as low as 19%.
...
The study finds no evidence of Omicron having lower severity than Delta, judged by either the proportion of people testing positive who report symptoms, or by the proportion of cases seeking hospital care after infection. However, hospitalisation data remains very limited at this time."
 
See above article.

Remember, with vaccines the manufacturers have selected a section of the virus to drive an immune response (in this case the S-protein). There are many other proteins on CV that induce immune responses, and the vaccines cannot drive those immune responses, only a natural infection. You can keep hammering away as much as you want driving an immune response to the same protein, but eventually the immune response plateaus.

With a natural infection, you get a much more broad multi-epitope antibody and T-cell response.

I've said it before, and I'll said it again: this is why those that have PROOF of prior COVID infection (hospital records, lab tests, etc.) should be afforded the same privileges that vaccinated individuals are afforded. Vaccinated immunity is not superior to natural immunity, it's just a safer path to get there.
Thank you for acknowledging this.
I've never been against the vaccine specifically. Just the mandate. I agree, if people were given the opportunity to provide proof of natural immunity, this would go a long way to getting things back to "normal"
 
Thank you for acknowledging this.
I've never been against the vaccine specifically. Just the mandate. I agree, if people were given the opportunity to provide proof of natural immunity, this would go a long way to getting things back to "normal"

Devils advocate here: this is ripe for abuse, so safeguards would have to be put in place. Just like fake vaccine cards are being sold like crazy now, I would expect this to go off the rails quickly without some kind of verification system in place.
 
Have seen various tweets from highly regard and referenced folks on this topic



Informative, but this is all in vitro data only (i.e. test tubes). I want to see what the hospitalization rates and death rates are in the vaccinated, unvaccinated with no prior COVID, and unvaccinated with prior COVID. That's the gold standard here.

The above data only paints a partial picture. As we teach in Immunology, antibodies only constitute part of the immune response (less than 1/2 in fact). The above doesn't include T-cell responses or the innate immune branch.
 
Hundreds off work ill at leading London hospital as Omicron cases surge

"Omicron is having a significant impact on staff at a large hospital trust with hundreds off work due to illness, leading to the cancellation of non-essential services to tackle a surge in admissions driven by the variant.
Guy’s and St Thomas’ trust (GSTT) in London is preparing to redeploy staff to work in its A&E and intensive care units to cover for the growing number of staff who are off work sick.
It has seen the number of hospitalised patients with Covid it is treating jump by a third over the last week and is bracing itself for worse to come in the days ahead.

Rising Covid cases have also left London fire and rescue services with “unprecedented” staff shortages, the Fire Brigades Union (FBU) said, with almost a third of London’s fire engines out of action at points in the last week.
...
“This is being felt not only with the increase in patient attendances (Covid admissions have increased a third over the last week) but also on staff sickness and subsequent absence from work.
...
GSTT also told A&E staff that “as of yesterday there were more than 350 staff members off work and isolating across the organisations due to Covid – a 25% increase on the previous day.”
...
Up to 130,000 NHS staff in England could be off sick with Covid by Christmas Day, unless ministers take new steps to tackle Omicron’s rapid spread, the British Medical Association is warning.
A new analysis by the doctors’ union found that on current trends anywhere from 32,000 medics, nurses and other personnel will be infected by 25 December, and that “in the worst case scenario” more than 130,000 staff – one in 10 of the total – may be off sick."
_____________________
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year... :oops:o_O
 
And we all know how "reliable" YouTube videos are as sources of information. If I were so inclined I could post YouTube videos "proving" that the Earth is flat, that people never walked on the moon, that the government has an ET imprisoned at Area 51, that over-unity machines are real, that ETs are regularly kidnapping people for gruesome experiments, that Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster are real, that there's a non-avian dinosaur living in Africa, etc., etc., etc. I could probably find "proof" on YouTube that Elvis shot JFK.

Anybody can post a video filled with outright lies on YouTube. Posting videos like the above is worthless.
I don't watch these videos which mostly cherry-pick a study they like then add their own spin. I did look at the Israeli study itself, which does show prior infection w/o vaccine is more effective than vaccine alone, even as both wane over time. It's a solid, broad-based study of actual illness that compensates for confounding factors. Prior infection plus vaccine provides the best protection, consistent with every other study I've seen.

Omicron was not active during the study period, so maybe it acts differently. So far it seems able to infect people with every form of immunity. Very recent infection or vaccine may be the best countermeasure.
 
Actually, he's not wrong.

Natural immunity has shown to produce more varied and longer-lasting immunity than with any of the vaccines.

The problem is there is about a 1 in 200-400 chance of death if you go the natural immunity route (varies by age, but that's the overall number).


Recent study has demonstrated that those that have been vaccinated and then get Omicron have the absolute best antibody profile (think of Omicron as a "super booster" in this regard):

This is absolutely NOT surprising, for anyone that has more than a passing understanding of microbiology. The vaccine-induced antibodies are protecting people against death and severe disease, but not complete infection (this is common with vaccines - so don't think it is some defect in how these were designed). Those that then get infected by Omicron are able to fight off the virus before severe disease, and in the process build up additional antibodies to epitopes of the virus that are not included in the vaccine (the vaccine is built with only the S-protein, and the original strain of that).
Not just the deaths, but the long term sequelae from COVID. Why chance the miserable experience of chronic neurological, respiratory and cardiac problems for natural exposure to generate antibodies?

Edit: In the beginning of this my wife said a few times she just wanted to get COVID and not have to worry about it any more. That was before the vaccines of course, but after seeing the long term COVID problems she wants nothing to do with it. She's had her booster a couple months ago, but plans to get another booster when she hits 6 months just to do whatever she can not to get COVID. COVID really sucks.
 
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Why? It it pre-dated Omicron and specifically said it didn't deal with it and I didn't see any mention of triple vaxxed/boosted individuals. So it would seem to cover neither of the parameters I specified.
This new study shows “natural infection” antibodies apparently being inferior to “full” non-boosted vaccination both for the original wild type Wuhan virus and especially for Omicron so the titers are lower and the breadth is seemingly inferior. Although not shown here, other studies show full vaccination plus mRNA booster being clearly superior to any of these with much higher titers and broader antibody matching.

4D14EDA3-78B7-4924-9256-1FFDC7DEF0BA.jpeg


 
Thank you for acknowledging this.
I've never been against the vaccine specifically. Just the mandate. I agree, if people were given the opportunity to provide proof of natural immunity, this would go a long way to getting things back to "normal"

I had been in support of mandates but the lack of one appears to be increasing general scientific literacy by attrition so.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
the breadth is seemingly inferior.

Yep, I don't really understand affinity maturation processes exactly, but apparently that's what it is.

So I don't quite follow statements like this:
you can keep hammering away as much as you want driving an immune response to the same protein, but eventually the immune response plateaus.

I don't get this from an immunologist. I mean, it's not really true in any sense - antibodies wane and another challenge will raise the levels again, no the immune response is really never "plateaued." In addition, with the booster, improving breadth and quality (in some way I don't understand). I definitely would like an immunologist to explain in pedantic detail. I would imagine the breadth and quality (but not quantity as described above) of the antibodies DOES reach a limit at some point in the series. Whether that's after 3 or 4, no idea. Three doses was still improving, so might be worth a shot at number four (should be eligible in a couple months though not clear what will be allowed after 6 months and whether a fourth dose will be permitted) .

Anyway, if I had had COVID, I'd definitely be getting vaccinated. It seems like the data from this study supports prior COVID patients being given perhaps 4-6 months to get vaccinated, but with the presence of Omicron (this study doesn't cover it), not knowing anything about severity, after that a vaccine series would be warranted (and likely sooner if possible). The study shows that that is the best (not too surprising!). May as well get something for your infection and cash in your super-immunity pass! So anyway, that's what the paper mentioned in the video seems to conclude. Glad the link was posted - paper is much better than the video of course.

IMG_1389.jpg
 
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Yep, I don't really understand affinity maturation processes exactly, but apparently that's what it is.

So I don't quite follow statements like this:


I don't get this from an immunologist. I mean, it's not really true in any sense - antibodies wane and another challenge will raise the levels again, no the immune response is really never "plateaued." In addition, with the booster, improving breadth and quality (in some way I don't understand). I definitely would like an immunologist to explain in pedantic detail. I would imagine the breadth and quality (but not quantity as described above) of the antibodies DOES reach a limit at some point in the series. Whether that's after 3 or 4, no idea. Three doses was still improving, so might be worth a shot at number four (should be eligible in a couple months though not clear what will be allowed after 6 months and whether a fourth dose will be permitted) .


Not true, I would like to know exactly which immunologist said that, because that is patently false information.

Repeated exposure to the SAME epitopes (i.e. the same vaccine with the exact same genetic sequence) will plateau a response. Sure, a 4th dose of the same vaccine might get you levels moderately higher than the third dose (comparing peak to peak), but they WILL be diminishing returns that asymptote, and a vaccine that does this FAR INFERIOR to a booster from a vaccine with a different genetic sequence and different epitopes on the protein. Boosters that broaden the immune response provide better coverage overall than those that keep selecting for the same antibodies.

There are feedback loops in just about everything in the human body, including antibody production. The natural way the human immune system gets around this and to enhance the immune response to a pathogen is to produce antibodies to as many epitopes on as many proteins as possible (i.e. a polyclonal response). It helps reduce "immune escape" by tossing a wider blanket on the infection. With that wider blanket, when things like Omicron come along that have substantial mutations, there are more memory B cells with proper antibodies that can response and ramp back up, vs. a ton of B-cells with the wrong antibody epitopes that won't respond at all.

Pushing the same booster over and over selects memory B-Cells which produce nearly a monoclonal response (not quite, but definitely selecting for that).

All else equal, polyclonal responses are always GREATER THAN monoclonal responses.

Additionally, the goal of vaccines, LONG TERM, should be to develop a proper memory B cell repertoire. There is a myopic focus on antibody levels right now, but in all vaccines antibody levels wane over time in favor of keeping a core group of memory B cells around that can ramp up quickly to an infection and re-produce the antibodies. You don't go get MMR, etc. boosters as adults, because you have memory B cells which can react to an infection and spool up antibody production.




Related, but not directly in response to the above - given how quickly Omicron is spreading, I would bet the R-value is substantially above Delta, which was substantially above the Wuhan original. Masks are going to provide diminishing levels of protection as the R-value increases. So this "experiment" is going to run it's course one way or another and we'll have the data to answer all these questions. We will see infections in the vaccinated, even if they wear masks, and we will know how well the current vaccines protect after 2 doses, 3 doses, etc. We will know how well native immunity from prior infection protects.

My "educated guess": this is a coronavirus, it is COMMON for humans to get re-infected with coronaviruses long before SARS-CoV-2 came into being. We get it, fight the infection off (first exposures are always elementary age children), and then we get them again later in life. Literally, they are common cold viruses (one of half a dozen species), and they have evolved long before SARS-CoV-2 so that they have the ability to keep re-infecting people. Fortunately, that means the evolutionary trajectory is to become something less deadly and "endemic". We will watch that play out over the coming years.
 
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Pushing the same booster over and over selects memory B-Cells which produce nearly a monoclonal response (not quite, but definitely selecting for that).

All else equal, polyclonal responses are always GREATER THAN monoclonal responses.

Additionally, the goal of vaccines, LONG TERM, should be to develop a proper memory B cell repertoire. There is a myopic focus on antibody levels right now, but in all vaccines antibody levels wane over time in favor of keeping a core group of memory B cells around that can ramp up quickly to an infection and re-produce the antibodies. You don't go get MMR, etc. boosters as adults, because you have memory B cells which can react to an infection and spool up antibody production.

Is there evidence that the booster dose of the vaccine improves the B cell or T cell response. Or is it all about a (seemingly temporary) boost in antibody response?