Decreasing rated range.

[Kraken]

Did my first Max Range charge since 5.6 & 5.8 and the first in a few months. 250 miles. Quite a drop from the 272 I started at. I have 22k miles in this pack.

I saw a car with 274 that had over 10000 miles. Mine has 7500 (6500 last week), and a range charge is only 254 and has never been more than 262. I wonder how much the difference with p85+ and 21 inch wheels is calculated in. For whatever it's worth, the actual projected value was spot on when driving 55 in range mode.

 

[mnx]

I haven't done a range charge since the summer. But my 90% charge is coming in @ 356km or 221 miles. I have ~17,500km (10850miles) on the car.

Did a Range Charge yesterday... the first ever on my car which has just under 17,000 miles. I got 246 Rated Miles.

Last July, I was doing a Range Charge, but had to abort and be on my way. When I unplugged, I was at 260 Rated Miles.

Quite a drop for me. I used to get 241 miles on a Standard Charge not so long ago.

 

[mknox]

I haven't done a range charge since the summer. But my 90% charge is coming in @ 356km or 221 miles. I have ~17,500km (10850miles) on the car.

I'm currently getting about 215 Miles on a 90% charge. Just about to turn to 18,000 miles.

 

[captain_zap]

My experience with our P85 has been that when I do a deep discharge (<30 miles remaining) followed by a normal (for me 80%) charge, some "lost" miles are recovered. In the most recent example, last week my 80% charge increased from 200 to 205 miles after a deep discharge. Could be due to either string balancing or perhaps just a good recalibration of the pack capacity that happens when discharged more deeply than usual.

 

[rlawson4]

Tonight I took the car down to a rated range of 8 miles. When I signed onto VisibleTesta there was 11% of the battery left. It seems pretty clear that instead of a decrease in range they are just hiding some more reserve below 0 miles rated range. Assuming that 11% was about 8 Kwh of battery, I would have driven about 24-30 miles. That would equate to 16-22 miles below zero. I am not recommending that anyone do that, I am just reporting my experience.

 

[yobigd20]

Tonight I took the car down to a rated range of 8 miles. When I signed onto VisibleTesta there was 11% of the battery left. It seems pretty clear that instead of a decrease in range they are just hiding some more reserve below 0 miles rated range.

This is the kind of actual data I was looking for to confirm what myself and others have suspected since we have taken the car down close to 0 yet the slider bar still shows what seems to be about 10% remaining.

Assuming that 11% was about 8 Kwh of battery, I would have driven about 24-30 miles. That would equate to 16-22 miles below zero. I am not recommending that anyone do that, I am just reporting my experience.

Unfortunately, I don't think that 10% remaining translates to 10% "drivable" remaining range past 0. I believe part of that 10% is the "zero-mile drivable buffer" followed by a completely unusable (to us) amount of battery left that Tesla reserves to protect against battery bricking.

An illustration of this here:

 

[bluetinc]

All,

I only have partial data right now because of the cold. I can not assure that the difference in pack voltage vs. rated miles at 0 is not related to the cold weather (~30F outside temps) where as all my testing data has been in the 60-70F range. Currently at 30F outside temps the 0 rated miles point seems to be raised from software versions 4.5->5.8 by about 4mV per cell on the bottom of the cycle (the top of the pack (max full) looks to be unchanged. Without the exact datasheet for Tesla's battery cell, it's a little harder to attach this to an exact amount of energy storage, but using similar Panasonic batteries as guidelines, this is equal to just over 1% of true manufacturers (Panasonic) rated pack capacity. Roll of of this up, and this would be a shifting of 4 more miles below 0 from above. Again I'll have to check this again when the weather warms.

Tonight I took the car down to a rated range of 8 miles. When I signed onto VisibleTesta there was 11% of the battery left. It seems pretty clear that instead of a decrease in range they are just hiding some more reserve below 0 miles rated range. Assuming that 11% was about 8 Kwh of battery, I would have driven about 24-30 miles. That would equate to 16-22 miles below zero. I am not recommending that anyone do that, I am just reporting my experience.

Could you be more clear on your suggestion? Are you saying all of our apparent degradation over the life of our cars is from them shifting miles to below 0? Just from 5.8? I can assure you that I have been watching this since my car was new, a year ago, and this is the first time I have seen any movement of "0" since it was new.

Peter

 

[Cal1]

I've noticed that in our three months of ownership that our fully charged range varied each morning. Sometimes it would be 227 miles, sometimes 334, sometimes 219. I wondered about the variation but never bothered to investigate further. Other posts have stressed the need to "shore preheat" the cabin before winter driving particularly when really cold weather hits. We're in the NW and like most of the US, temps have plummeted to the low teens.

A few days ago I noticed that the fully charged range was 217. This seemed particularly low but it has been really cold. The car had been plugged in all night but finished charging hours ago. I do not have a delayed charge time set. It just starts charging when I plug in. The car was still plugged in and I started preheating the cabin. As we unplugged the car to leave (about an half hour later) I noticed that the range had increased to 220 miles. Clearly preheating had caused the charge cycle to begin again. I know the sleep mode drains power but I've not been able to find any reference indicating at what point (range, volts, amps, watts) a recharge cycle will kick in again to bring the car back up to full charge. Is my fully charged range varying based on how long since the last charge? I'd like this expressed in miles, not volts or amps or even KWs. The longest I've left our car plugged in is 24 hrs. Never thought to monitor to see if it was charging after the initial plug in.

Amazing that a car so dependent on current does not have an amp meter or volt meter anywhere to be found.

 

[rlawson4]

All,

I only have partial data right now because of the cold. I can not assure that the difference in pack voltage vs. rated miles at 0 is not related to the cold weather (~30F outside temps) where as all my testing data has been in the 60-70F range. Currently at 30F outside temps the 0 rated miles point seems to be raised from software versions 4.5->5.8 by about 4mV per cell on the bottom of the cycle (the top of the pack (max full) looks to be unchanged. Without the exact datasheet for Tesla's battery cell, it's a little harder to attach this to an exact amount of energy storage, but using similar Panasonic batteries as guidelines, this is equal to just over 1% of true manufacturers (Panasonic) rated pack capacity. Roll of of this up, and this would be a shifting of 4 more miles below 0 from above. Again I'll have to check this again when the weather warms.





Could you be more clear on your suggestion? Are you saying all of our apparent degradation over the life of our cars is from them shifting miles to below 0? Just from 5.8? I can assure you that I have been watching this since my car was new, a year ago, and this is the first time I have seen any movement of "0" since it was new.

Peter

I think Yobigd20 makes a good point. I have no idea how much of the remaining battery is available below the rated "0." What I have noticed is that there appears to be a reserve below zero that has increased from when my car was new. Even. the battery meter now appears to show some capacity when there would not have been when my car was new. I took the car to 3 rated miles 10 months ago. The battery meter showed nothing.

 

[gaswalla]

All these theories are very interesting but the fact is that a new car (or new battery) in the same weather with the same firmware will consistently show 10-20 more miles of range at 90+% charge as compared to a vehicle with 20k-ish miles.

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

@ cal1 . i don't think the S will top off when you preheat it. You are probably seeing the battery temperature raise and therefore mileage go from 217 to 220.

About the range below 0. there is definitely a bigger bottom buffer now than in early firmware. I had 0 miles remaining on 4.o with the bar below 1/10

 

[Cal1]

Left home this morning with only 171 mile range. Forgot to plug in last night. It's 23degrees and preheating the cabin without being connected to a wall socket cost me almost 7 miles of range. As we left the house the dashed line came on indicating battery heating-lower regen etc. This went away after a few miles. It does return after every stop of any duration. I'm wondering how this thing is going to fair shopping in the winter. This is my first winter. This could be not good if it's going to have to rewarm both the cabin and the battery with every stop.

 

[SFOTurtle]

All these theories are very interesting but the fact is that a new car (or new battery) in the same weather with the same firmware will consistently show 10-20 more miles of range at 90+% charge as compared to a vehicle with 20k-ish miles.

Exactly. That's why I'm looking for new 60 owners to report what they see at 100% charge. I'm suspecting it will be 208 or thereabouts, which will be considerably higher than those of us who took delivery earlier this year and have some miles on them.

 

[islandbayy]

@ cal1 . i don't think the S will top off when you preheat it. You are probably seeing the battery temperature raise and therefore mileage go from 217 to 220.

About the range below 0. there is definitely a bigger bottom buffer now than in early firmware. I had 0 miles remaining on 4.o with the bar below 1/10
View attachment 37615

Correct, as the battery heats, the range will in crease. See my Video on this, watch my range go up as the pack heats, yes it is plugged in, though not charging.

 

[yobigd20]

Correct, as the battery heats, the range will in crease. See my Video on this, watch my range go up as the pack heats, yes it is plugged in, though not charging.

Kinda hard to see on my phone as it was too shaky but halfway through it switched to "charging" and then the miles started going up. Soooo.... didn't see what u were talking about with the heating.

 

[bluetinc]

Are you sure that your battery meter showed nothing? I have pictures from a year ago in my car, with a range of 1 mile, and a battery showing exactly what all these pictures show, a SOC of 5% +/-, and that was back running 4.0. Since then I've been at 3 rated miles a few times and always seen similar indications of about 5% give or take.

Peter

I think Yobigd20 makes a good point. I have no idea how much of the remaining battery is available below the rated "0." What I have noticed is that there appears to be a reserve below zero that has increased from when my car was new. Even. the battery meter now appears to show some capacity when there would not have been when my car was new. I took the car to 3 rated miles 10 months ago. The battery meter showed nothing.

 

[get_amped]

Had my car for almost three months. 100% charge with firmware version 5.8 gives me 208 miles. It used to be 215 with version 5.6. 90% charge used to be 182 with version 5.6. Today it was 178 though it has been cooler the last week so that I'm sure plays into it. With temperatures above 60 I expect 90% charge to yield 180-181.

 

[Eggplant]

FWIW--

I've been collecting one minute data on my car since August. Since 5.8, I will often see rated and ideal range jump up sharply 3-5 miles after sitting idle for some period of time after a charge. This is sitting in my garage. No significant temp changes, no SOC changes. Just an apparent recalculation on the rated and ideal ranges. I've seen this as quickly as about 15 minutes after charge complete and as long as two hours after.

Just this evening at 50% SOC, range jumped from 113 to 116, and 129 to 132 15 minutes after charge complete.

 

[bluetinc]

Eggplant,

When you say charge complete, do you mean the end of standard charging, or after a balance cycle that follows standard charging? I've seen mine recalculate ranges at the end of a balance cycle which can take hours in some cases.

Peter

FWIW--

I've been collecting one minute data on my car since August. Since 5.8, I will often see rated and ideal range jump up sharply 3-5 miles after sitting idle for some period of time after a charge. This is sitting in my garage. No significant temp changes, no SOC changes. Just an apparent recalculation on the rated and ideal ranges. I've seen this as quickly as about 15 minutes after charge complete and as long as two hours after.

Just this evening at 50% SOC, range jumped from 113 to 116, and 129 to 132 15 minutes after charge complete.

 

[Eggplant]

I mean standard charging. In my example, this was a 50% standard charge.